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3 months ago ::
Feb 22, 2013 - 5:42PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jul 31, 2011
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I ran into this situation while playing some kitchen table Magic with my buddy. He's running a pretty mean Evolve deck that, for giggles, also includes Cauldron of Souls  for protecting his creatures, and he insists that when persist triggers his creatures will return to the battlefield with the +1/+1 counters they already had, and I'm not entirely unsure he's wrong. As an example, lets say all of his creatures have at least one +1/+1 counter on them. Then I play Wrath of God or a similar wipe spell. He taps the Cauldron and gives them all persist. His logic says that the -1/-1 counters they would get cancelled out by their +1/+1 counters immediately, so the net result is really that instead of his creatures getting destroyed you just remove a +1/+1 counter from them. Of course this would only work if they would keep their +1/+1 counters upon returning to the field, which I'm not convinced is correct. I always understood persist (and undying for that matter) to reset the creature and then put the counter on it. But I've always been uncomfortable with dealing with these mechanics so I'm not completely sure. Can someone clarify this for me?
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3 months ago ::
Feb 22, 2013 - 5:42PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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when a card changes zones it forgets everything it was before
it will not keep any counters, auras or encoded cards
proud member of the 2011 community team
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3 months ago ::
Feb 22, 2013 - 5:48PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jul 31, 2011
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It works for counters too, then? That's what I suspected. So then the combo isn't as broken as I thought. XD Not like its hard for him to put +1/+1 counters back on his creatures and keep it rolling. Thanks!
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3 months ago ::
Feb 22, 2013 - 5:56PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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he can keep it rolling
when it undies it returns with a +1/+1 counter
if it persists it returns with a -1/-1 counter
if he alternates the returning method he can keep his creature "forever"
proud member of the 2011 community team
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3 months ago ::
Feb 22, 2013 - 6:28PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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it will not keep any counters
and if your friend argues
then ask him "what is the point of the second ability on Skullbriar, the Walking Grave  ?"
obviously, he must be mistaken
MtG Rules Advisor &
Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJDJ VortexDCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320 Wit found in Rules Q&ARPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?" My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out
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3 months ago ::
Feb 22, 2013 - 6:37PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jul 31, 2011
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Now that I'm thinking about it, I may have misunderstood his logic. Now, I think he believes that the creatures don't actually hit the graveyard. Which is wrong, because you can exile them with something like Tormod's Crypt  when they die to prevent persist or undying from triggering. I'll have to show him that.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 22, 2013 - 7:19PM
#7
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Now that I'm thinking about it, I may have misunderstood his logic. Now, I think he believes that the creatures don't actually hit the graveyard. Which is wrong, because you can exile them with something like Tormod's Crypt when they die to prevent persist or undying from triggering. I'll have to show him that.
You are correct, he is incorrect.
Persist (When this creature dies, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a -1/-1 counter on it.)
Undying (When this creature dies, if it had no +1/+1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a +1/+1 counter on it.)
Dies means when this ___ goes to the graveyard from the battlefield.
These abilities trigger and go on the stack when the creatures die.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 22, 2013 - 8:14PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Feb 16, 2013
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Now that I'm thinking about it, I may have misunderstood his logic. Now, I think he believes that the creatures don't actually hit the graveyard. Which is wrong, because you can exile them with something like Tormod's Crypt when they die to prevent persist or undying from triggering. I'll have to show him that.
He is probably thinking of regenerate.
If a creature was regenerated, it never died. It was kept alive by the effect.
But as was already pointed out, both persist and undying trigger after the creature died (and went the graveyard) so you could respond with a tormods crypt to the trigger of the effect and remove them before the resolution since your tormods would resolve first in the stack
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3 months ago ::
Feb 23, 2013 - 2:33AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Mar 12, 2011
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Note, that even if you cast a spell/use an ability to remove the creature cards from the graveyard, persist and undying have already triggered and will resolve doing as much as possible, which just ends up to be nothing. But they are still on the stack and will still resolve, which might matter in some rare cases.
Also, if he brings back his evolve creatures with persist, the chances are high, that many of them will die immediately again, without a chance to save them, because many evolve creatures only have a natural toughness of 1, which the -1/-1 counter reduces to 0 and SBAs will put those creatures back into the graveyard before anyone gets priority to do anything about it. They may still trigger evolve of other creatures (even ones that die alongside them), though. Surviving evolvers may thus get +1/+1 counters due to this.
I'm a Rules Advisor now  "Simple questions" usually need rather complex answers, while complex questions often come down to no more than a simple "yes" or "no". Some of my favorite Flavor texts:
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