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4 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 1:36PM
#1
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I watched some of the coverage of Pro Tour Gatecrash and I was surprised at how many "obvious" mistakes they seemed to make. Two that come to mind are Melissa running into orzhov charm  restoration angel (Martell had zealous conscripts  and telegraphed charm by playing shock untapped), and then not charming her own thragtusk , and owen slamming an olivia voldaren  and an arbor elf with 6 mana into a garruk relentless when he could have easily just pinged to go out of fight range rather than play the elf. There were some other minor sequencing mistakes (Efro attacking with reckoner before playing a second reckoner, leaving himself open to tragic slip that prevented his gyre sage  from evolving.) While the obvious ones dont contain much useful information other than to make the rest of us feel better knowing that sleep deprived pros arent perfect, video of professional games where the time limits are much more lax (top 8 of a pro tour) can provide reasonable situations that come up in real games where we as a community can think of what the 'optimal' play may have been. One that interested me in particular was Efro's play against Tom Martell in the deciding game. Efro has 6 lands, 4 of which produce red, a gyre sage with one counter, a loxodon smiter  , and a boros reckoner  and 2x hellrider  and 1x aurelia, the warleader  in hand. Tom has 2x [c]doomed traveler[c], 2x boros reckoner , and a cartel aristocrat  as well as 1 card in hand ( blasphemous act  ) and is tapped out. Both players are I believe on 17. Efro plays aurelia and swings with the team, deals a ton of damage but loses his own reckoner and subsequently loses to blashemous act. Of course, act is a 2 of at most from martell's deck, and it doesnt make sense to necessarily play around it. That said, he has a ton of gas in hand, and can probably afford to play around a lot. Was there a way he could reasonably play around act in this spot, i.e. beat act, or another creature/removal spell if martell doesnt have act. I cant find a line where Aurelia can beat act. That said I think playing aurelia using 1 from gyre sage and swinging with smiter, reckoner and aurelia (with the option of giving reckoner first strike) is a better line than what efro actually did. Martell still wins with act but little else, it severely depletes martell's resources such that he loses with anything but act, and leaves efro in a position to follow up with double hellrider. Martell doesnt have a way of actually killing reckoner without losing both his reckoners unless he blocks twice with a protected aristocrat. Martell will then be forced to block with his reckoner. Likely response is block aristocrat traveler on smiter reckoner sac for prot white and take 3, on the second swing if efro swings with all... he blocks token on aurelia, traveler blocks reckoner a second time, reckoner blocks smiter, and aristocrat blocks gyre sage. In the end martell is at 14 with spirit token, reckoner, aristocrat and efro is at 13 with all his guys, and then loses to act. Efro can also cast hellrider and swing with 4 guys, with mana for first strike on his reckoner. The 4 triggers but martell to 13 and he will be unable to kill reckoner without losing both his reckoner. Thus, this play will beat the act, but costs Efro a lot of his board (trading something like two half doomed traveler and reckoner for smiter, sage, and hellrider. Efro can also go for double hellrider using sage and swing with hellrider/hellrider/smiter. This line doesnt lose to act, but its not clear it beats removal spell either. It loses all 3 creatures in exchange for something like doomer traveler/reckoner. He can also attack with hellrider/hellrider/reckoner/smiter. If martell wants to go for a reckoner win, then he cant block with either reckoner, else he loses both and cant use act. He takes 8 from triggers and goes to 9. To kill reckoner he blocks with artistocrat and traveler, and then chumps smiter with traveler and takes 6 from hellrider... but he cant do that because then he loses when he takes 3 from reckoner. The 'all out attack' appears safe from a reckoner win. Of course, knowing this, Martell can instead 2-for-1 efro with his reckoners, wrecking his board... Anyone see any significant downside to the double hellrider swing with the team play? Is there a better line? Would the double hellrider line likely lead to victory if martell doesnt have act (and instead has, say, removal)? Does anyone remember other gamestates from the pro tour that were interesting and worth discussing?
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4 months ago ::
Feb 20, 2013 - 2:55PM
#2
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Due to the sheer length of most tournaments, Top 8 games tend to have more play mistakes than earlier rounds due to fatigue.
While I didn't watch much of the coverage, I think I can speak a little bit about what could have been in the heads of the players:
Melissa could have thought Martell was bluffing Charm with the playing of the shockland untapped (I've done similar bluffs to feed false intel). She could have help back on her own Charm because she might ended up needing the draw later, or the bounce to defend herself. It's not like a dead Thragtusk leaves you with nothing, you still get that 3/3 token.
I can't speak to Owen's play without knowing the board state.
As a general rule, you play creatures in the second main phase. This leaves mana up for combat tricks/bluffing. I'd have done the same as Efro in the first case. In the second, I don't know what was going on there. I'd have made the double Hellrider alpha strike, maybe holding back Reckoner. But I'm sitting as an outside party, and not presently in a final top 8 game. The Aurelia alpha strike was likely deemed the safest play, knowing Aurelia would get 6 damage though unless both travelers got saced to make spirit tokens, and didn't want to risk playing around a threat that wasn't there.
An Aurelia + Smiter + Sage swing might have been a bit safer of a play, holding back Reckoner in case he did have Act, but that could still result in losing to Act, since if Martell could have chumped Smiter with a traveler (making a token to block Aurelia next swing), sacing a token to the Cartel for pro-White so Cartel can block Smiter unscathed and makes a token to block Aurelia on this swing). That leaves him taking 6 damage going to 11 (if your accurate on the life totals) if he doesn't block the 3/4 Sage on both passes. He could block it with a Reckoner, but then he losses a Reckoner to the Sage, and since Cartel is currently pro-White (and thus can kill the Smiter on swing 2), he can dome Efro's face with the Reckoner trigger, bringing Efro to 14 and just eat 3 from Sage's second swing (thus not risking Reckoner #2). That puts Efro -1 Smiter (though I doubt Smiter would have been involved in combat round 2, and Martell could just as easily gone pro-Green, leting him block Sage (and kill it) on round 2) and on 14 and Martell either at 14 or still at 17 and -2 Traveler (and tokens), -1 Reckoner (if he risked it), with an Act in hand. In that event though I think Martell just goes to 14, hopes to top deck a creature (maybe he had a Lingering Souls in the 'yard?) then play Act bringing them both to 1, but that extra creature could be sac'd to Cartel with Act on the Stack to make it Pro-Red, so when the dust settles Martell has a 2/2 and can swing for lethal. But if he wiffed that creature draw, the game would have been Efro's.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 21, 2013 - 1:03PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Sep 10, 2006
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It's easy to say they made misakes when you have all of the information about what is going on and your'e not the one actually doing it. Nobody plays perfect Magic because it's impossible. In a large tournament setting most of the time its about who makes the least amount of mistakes rather than who is playing the best all the time. In ever match there are going to be mistakes from both sides. What makes them pros is learning from this and getting better.
I remember a few of the lines you're talking about which could have cost them games but I don't see how it's super relevant.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 21, 2013 - 2:40PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jul 26, 2007
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No one is good at Magic.
It is a matter of who sucks the least.
Slave of Tibalt. Currently trading for foils of my bro. PM me. Tarmogoyf on Twitter. Follow me. Team GFG Guns, Fame, Glory Those that require a sig for the ego simply haven't had enough kind words thrown his or her way. Currently looking for prerelease Plains! People who have mailed me rares: Spoiler:
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PM me to make it happen. Your username will end up here, as the cards you sent me. I reserve the right to order your usernames by the cards I liked the best.
Oh, and if you send me some Islands in the package, I'll sign them and mail them back.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 21, 2013 - 2:47PM
#5
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No one is good at Magic.
It is a matter of who sucks the least.
Speak for yourself, i'm the best there is at this game...
i just get unlucky a lot....
Blue is the best color ever. How do you deal? Team GFG - "gulf, foxtrot, gulf" Twitter: Burning_Forest ------------------------------------------------------ I started making some Dubstep and Electronica. Check me out here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXLxlHeE1rg My Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/whitefender69?feature=mhee It is a little bit chill. Let me know what you think. 
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4 months ago ::
Feb 21, 2013 - 3:42PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Oct 23, 2010
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OP-
Attend a Grand Prix. There really isn't a whole lot more to be said on what you might not understand on the subject.
What makes "pros" and "good players" good is that they can use imperfect information to make strong plays. This involves knowing when you need to play conservatively, and when you need to force a crazy play.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 21, 2013 - 4:00PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Nov 18, 2012
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No one is good at Magic.
It is a matter of who sucks the least.
You're getting sig'd.
Also 50 catpoints.
I don't have an egosig because I'd rather my ideas be judged on their merits than on mine. Catpoints: Spoiler:
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What are catpoints?
A way of measuring how much I love you.
How do I get catpoints?
1: participate in my forum games/contests.
2: make awesome posts.
3: destroy Carthage.
What can I do with catpoints?
You can ask favors of me. I may or may not agree to your favor, depending on how big the favor is and how many catpoints you have.
Who has how many catpoints?
shadowchu: 100
Islands: 100
Niche: 50
mrindigo: 50
kips: 50
Rstnme: 25
Jman: 25
everyone else: 0
Keeperofmanynames: -100
Morgothra: -100
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4 months ago ::
Feb 21, 2013 - 8:17PM
#8
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I think the purpose of this thread may have been somewhat misinterpreted. It was not meant to be "I dont understand, why are these pro players so bad!?!?!?!?". The point was even pros make mistakes. I am not a pro, and Im sure I make many more than they do.
My intent was for people to discuss tricky boardstates and advocate for different lines of play. I brought in pro play because I felt it makes the game states more interesting if they actually occured. It could be that the 'pro' made a non-intuitive play that ended up being really good (i.e. turn 3 boros charm from Joel Larsson). I also was impressed by Lucas J.'s (could be misremembering his name) insta-scoop to Wafo-Tapa after a mull to 5.
Of course, watching replays, its easy to be biased because we might know a player has a certain card (i.e. blasphemous act). Obviously its best to try to put forth different lines of play in as unbiased a way as possible.
TL;DR how can we as a forum community use the play of others to improve our own playing ability?
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4 months ago ::
Feb 21, 2013 - 11:23PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Sep 10, 2006
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Once you get your mechanics down there isn't much to learn from watching others play. Watching pros play is more about understanding why they are playing the cards they are and seeing what kind of interactions they've discovered. It's also just entertaining to see people play. I don't think you can become a great player watching other people play. You just need to get in the reps.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 22, 2013 - 5:58AM
#10
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watching pro play can be nice for learning to try and think in a different manner than usual. you can have the mechanics down, but there could always be different or unconvential ways to look at board states. pros are good at finding the better, but unexpected lines of play. those things are definitely worth watching.
of course, this won't always happen, but magic is a pretty diverse and complicated game where there can always been different lines of play.
like chess, "easy" to learn, "difficult" to master
Blue is the best color ever. How do you deal? Team GFG - "gulf, foxtrot, gulf" Twitter: Burning_Forest ------------------------------------------------------ I started making some Dubstep and Electronica. Check me out here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXLxlHeE1rg My Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/whitefender69?feature=mhee It is a little bit chill. Let me know what you think.
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