I was under the impression that a permanent with both negative and positive counters on it remained that way until SBAs were checked and they cancelled one another out. Do SBAs get checked between the finks getting a counter and the doomblade resolving?
In that rules file, it specifically says (under the heading Rule 121: Counters):
"121.3. If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it. See rule 704."
In other words, if a creature has one -1/-1 counter on it and you place one +1/+1 counter on it, the game will remove both of the counters as a state-based action leaving the creature with zero counters on it. This is not a question of logic or interpretation. The counters come off of the creature, by game rule.
Edit: If you place counters on a creature using some spell or ability, a player will receive priority after that spell or ability resolves, but before any player get's priority (ever) the game performs state-based actions. So what happens is, counters are placed on the finks, then removed by state based actions, then the doom blade resolves, then the finks persist triggers.
I was under the impression that a permanent with both negative and positive counters on it remained that way until SBAs were checked and they cancelled one another out. Do SBAs get checked between the finks getting a counter and the doomblade resolving?
Yes, SBAs are always checked right before any plyer would recieve priority and in the cleanup step. Players recieve priority after any one object on the stack (spell or ability) resolves.
I'm a Rules Advisor now
"Simple questions" usually need rather complex answers, while complex questions often come down to no more than a simple "yes" or "no".
I dont have trouble with it, im just saying that -1-1 counter is still on that creature when it returns to play. If you "annihilated" that -1-1 counter with puting on it +1+1 counter is silly because -1-1 is still on it, it wasnt removed (practically).
Saying that the counters annihilate eachother doesnt just mean they cancel eachother out - they are both completly removed from the creature.
If a creature has a -1/-1 counter on it, and you add a +1/+1 counter, it will end up with ZERO counters on it - not just with the same p/t altering effect overall as if it had zero counters, but actually zero counters.
If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed?
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
How to autocard (do this to specify a card in your posts): Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus . Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One .
MtG Rules Advisor & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ DJ Vortex
DCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320
Wit found in Rules Q&A
RPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?"
That rule is not always "logical" (more like a bit convoluted): see Kinsbaile Borderguard and Incremental Blight . Borderguard has 2 +1/+1 counters on it, and incremental blight puts 3 -1/-1 counters on it, how many tokens do you get?
You're accusing the wrong rule. You get five tokens because all those counters get counted before they get removed, but that's caused by the extra-convulated rule 603.6d (Leaves-the-battlefield abilities), not by 704.5r (counters mutual anhililation).
«Dystocracy : A system of government in which corrupt leadership colludes with dishonest bankers and greedy elites in order to ensure that productive members of society –people who actually do useful work- bear the greatest share of taxes while gaining the least benefit possible.»
704.7. If a state-based action results in a permanent leaving the battlefield at the same time other statebased actions were performed, that permanent’s last known information is derived from the game state before any of those state-based actions were performed.
MtG Rules Advisor & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ DJ Vortex
DCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320
Wit found in Rules Q&A
RPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?"
