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5 months ago ::
Feb 08, 2013 - 7:18AM
#1
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Why does Second Sunrise  and similar cards work? I thought cards changing zones become new objects.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 08, 2013 - 7:21AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2012
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My best guess is that that objects in the graveyard can tell you where they came from without using LKI or anything like that.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 08, 2013 - 7:23AM
#3
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My best guess is that that objects in the graveyard can tell you where they came from without using LKI or anything like that.
How and why?
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5 months ago ::
Feb 08, 2013 - 7:25AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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They do become new objects, but obviously this spell can look at all occurrences this turn of cards going from the battlefield to the graveyard and hunt for those cards in the second zone if they're still there. A card that left the graveyard to exile and returned to the graveyard (say via Mimic Vat  ) wouldn't be returned by Second Sunrise.
MtG Rules Advisor &
Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJDJ VortexDCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320 Wit found in Rules Q&ARPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?" My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out
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5 months ago ::
Feb 08, 2013 - 7:31AM
#5
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They do become new objects, but obviously this spell can look at all occurrences this turn of cards going from the battlefield to the graveyard and hunt for those cards in the second zone if they're still there.
But wouldn't then the spell be worded differently? Like "Each player returns to the battlefield all artifact, creature, enchantment, and land cards in his or her graveyard that share a name with permanents that were put there from the battlefield this turn. If a number of permanents with the same name were put into the graveyard this turn, that number is equal to the number of permanents with that name returned.".
Because as is, the current wording still implies to an extent that what you have in the graveyards are not actually new objects, and that they (the physical cards) were in a different zone in the current game, which...doesn't make sense.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 08, 2013 - 7:42AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2012
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400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence.This is a useful rule, but it can be a bit misleading when you start to ask about things like Second Sunrise , Phage the Untouchable  , and Increasing Devotion  . We're meant to focus on the points that: A) objects in Magic are instanced, and B) a single card can, at different times, represent different objects To focus on the "no memory/no relation" part breaks the game right in half. In some capacity, objects are aware of what they once were. But they are not the same objects, and nothing about the old object is retained unless it's asked for.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 08, 2013 - 7:48AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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The objects usually (there are some exceptions in 400.7) have no relation to or knowledge of their past existance, however, the game knows. It tracks where everything is and was, so the spell works as worded because its accessing the game record.
MtG Rules Advisor &
Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJDJ VortexDCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320 Wit found in Rules Q&ARPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?" My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out
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5 months ago ::
Feb 08, 2013 - 7:58AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2006
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I do wonder why none of the 400.7 exceptions apply... But I believe it's simply because Second Sunrise obviously looks for objects in the graveyard, and that the fact that those objects moved there from the battlefield this turn is information that the game has access to. It's not really a contradiction to 400.7. The object doesn't need to keep memory of its past existence for the game to identify it.
 Magic The Gathering DCI Rules Advisor Don't hesitate to post rules question in the Rules Q&A forum for me and other competent advisors to answer : http://community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/75842/134778/Rules_Q38A
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5 months ago ::
Feb 08, 2013 - 8:39AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Oct 15, 2009
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I think the simple answer is that while the game objects represented by the physical cards in your graveyard may not remember their previous existence (and hence be untrackable by the game) as far as I know there isn't a rule that prohibits the game from being able to track the movement of physical objects.
 Rules Advisor as of 03/01/2013 Zammm = Batman "Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman
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5 months ago ::
Feb 08, 2013 - 10:57AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2012
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It's mostly meaningless to say that objects cannot track information while the game itself can. Objects can "request" any type of information from the game if it's needed. Whatever the game tracks, so too do objects within the game.
Any scenario that relies on information being "lost" by zone changes also relies on the fact that the effect is looking for a specific instance of an object.
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