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Feb 9, 2013 -- 8:28AM, 2goth4U wrote:

@Fezzhead: My understanding of the rules says that if someone were to filter all the cards through a Mimic Vat that none of those cards would be returned to the field because they are new game objects.

However, reading through rules 108 and 109 I can't find any proof of this and those rules appear to give a contrary answer to this understanding.

109.2a If a spell or ability uses a description of an object that includes the word “card” and the name of a zone, it means a card matching that description in the stated zone.

The card cycled through Mimic Vat didn't get moved from the battlefield, it got moved from exile. As such, it doesn't match the description. It was a different card that got moved from the battelfield. Don't forget that card is a type of object, so 400.7 applies here.

Feb 10, 2013 -- 4:26PM, Astarael7 wrote:

Feb 9, 2013 -- 10:20AM, ikegami wrote:

It was a different card that got moved from the battelfield. Don't forget that card is a type of object, so 400.7 applies here.

I don't buy this. It is most definitely the same card, and I can offer any number of different ways to prove that.

Well, here are the only ways that matter:

400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or
relation to, its previous existence. There are seven exceptions to this rule:
400.7a Effects from spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities that change the characteristics
of a permanent spell on the stack continue to apply to the permanent that spell becomes. ( Second Sunrise doesn't affects permanents or spells.)
400.7b Prevention effects that apply to damage from a permanent spell on the stack continue to
apply to damage from the permanent that spell becomes. (Second Sunrise doesn't deal damage.)
400.7c If an ability of a permanent requires information about choices made as that permanent was
cast as a spell, including what mana was spent to cast that spell, it uses information about the
spell that became that permanent as it resolved. (Second Sunrise doesn't have any choices to make.)
400.7d Abilities that trigger when an object moves from one zone to another (for example, "When
Rancor is put into a graveyard from the battlefield") can find the new object that it became in
the zone it moved to when the ability triggered, if that zone is a public zone. (Second Sunrise isn't a triggered ability.)
400.7e Abilities of Auras that trigger when the enchanted permanent leaves the battlefield can find
the new object that Aura became in its owner’s graveyard if it was put into that graveyard at the
same time the enchanted permanent left the battlefield. It can also find the new object that Aura
became in its owner’s graveyard as a result of being put there as a state-based action for not
being attached to a permanent. (See rule 704.5n.) (Second Sunrise isn't an Aura.)
400.7f If an effect grants a nonland card an ability that allows it to be cast, that ability will continue
to apply to the new object that card became after it moved to the stack as a result of being cast
this way. (Second Sunrise doesn't let you cast anything.)
400.7g A resolving spell or activated ability can perform actions on an object that moved from one
zone to another while that spell was being cast or that ability was being activated, if that object
moved to a public zone. (The cards in your graveyard got there long before Second Sunrise was cast.)

Since none of the exceptions apply, the object represented by the physical creature card has no relation to the object that was previously represented by that same card.

Feb 10, 2013 -- 4:26PM, Astarael7 wrote:

Feb 9, 2013 -- 10:20AM, ikegami wrote:

It was a different card that got moved from the battelfield. Don't forget that card is a type of object, so 400.7 applies here.

I don't buy this. It is most definitely the same card, and I can offer any number of different ways to prove that.

It might be the same physical card, but MTG doesn't care about that. It only cares about game objects. That card is different object than the card it was in exile, which was a different object than the card it was in the graveyard, which was a different object than the permanent it was on the battlefield.

"No it's not" is not a valid argument. "I have proof" is not a valid argument. You'll have to do much better than that if you want to convince anyone. Start "offering".

Feb 10, 2013 -- 4:47PM, Astarael7 wrote:

Then how are we answering the OP's question?

As I explained, Second Sunrise doesn't ask about any object other than those currently in the graveyard, so it doesn't matter that card become new objects when they change zone. It just asks what action created them, and they were obviously around when they got created!