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4 months ago ::
Feb 07, 2013 - 10:18AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2011
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I have a couple of questions about Skullbriar, the Walking Grave  . 1) I control Skullbriar with a +1/+1 counter on it. My opponent casts Black Sun's Zenith  with X = 2. When Skullbriar dies, will it be in the graveyard with both a +1/+1 counter and two -1/-1 counters? 2) This one's not really a question I guess. Skullbriar has a ruling that says that the counters it maintains as it changes zones don't count as being placed on it. However, this seems to contradict rule 121.6. 121.6. If a spell or ability refers to a counter being “placed” on a permanent, it means putting a counter on that permanent while it’s on the battlefield, or that permanent entering the battlefield with a counter on it as the result of an effect (see rule 614.1c). If Skullbriar is in my graveyard with a +1/+1 counter on it and I cast Rise from the Grave  , Skullbriar enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it as a result of the effect of its ability preventing that counter from being removed. Is this interpretation not accurate?
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4 months ago ::
Feb 07, 2013 - 10:21AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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1) 704.5r only talks about permanents
so it should keep both in the graveyard
2) Skullbriar keeping the counters is not an effect, but a static ability
so there is no contradiction there
proud member of the 2011 community team
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4 months ago ::
Feb 07, 2013 - 10:25AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jan 19, 2003
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1) I control Skullbriar with a +1/+1 counter on it. My opponent casts Black Sun's Zenith with X = 2. When Skullbriar dies, will it be in the graveyard with both a +1/+1 counter and two -1/-1 counters?
It will not. The two state-based actions (removing the counters, and sending skullbriar to the graveyard) are both applicable to the skullbriar-on-the-battlefield and they are both executed simultaneously. At the first moment skullbriar is in the graveyard, it has just the one -1/-1 counter.
2) This one's not really a question I guess. Skullbriar has a ruling that says that the counters it maintains as it changes zones don't count as being placed on it. However, this seems to contradict rule 121.6.
I think it comes down to the fact that the counters were already there. Instead of it being a case where "skullbriar enters the battlefield with counters due to an effect", it's a case of "the game doesn't fully treat skullbriar as a new object... due to an effect". Admittedly though, there is no rule i can point to to support this.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 07, 2013 - 10:26AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2006
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I have a couple of questions about Skullbriar, the Walking Grave .
1) I control Skullbriar with a +1/+1 counter on it. My opponent casts Black Sun's Zenith with X = 2. When Skullbriar dies, will it be in the graveyard with both a +1/+1 counter and two -1/-1 counters?
No. The counter annihilation state-based action is taken at the same time as the go-the-graveyard state-based action. Skullbriar will only have one -1/-1 counter.
2) This one's not really a question I guess. Skullbriar has a ruling that says that the counters it maintains as it changes zones don't count as being placed on it. However, this seems to contradict rule 121.6.
121.6. If a spell or ability refers to a counter being “placed” on a permanent, it means putting a counter
on that permanent while it’s on the battlefield, or that permanent entering the battlefield with a
counter on it as the result of an effect (see rule 614.1c).
If Skullbriar is in my graveyard with a +1/+1 counter on it and I cast Rise from the Grave , Skullbriar enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it as a result of the effect of its ability preventing that counter from being removed. Is this interpretation not accurate?
I don't think it is, at least not as far as the intent of what "placed" should mean. The counter clearly isn't placed, it was already on the Skullbriar card and it just stays on the Skullbriar card. But "that permanent entering the battlefield with a counter on it as the result of an effect" is indeed kind of ambiguous there if you to try to apply it to the letter.
 Magic The Gathering DCI Rules Advisor Don't hesitate to post rules question in the Rules Q&A forum for me and other competent advisors to answer : http://community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/75842/134778/Rules_Q38A
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4 months ago ::
Feb 07, 2013 - 10:26AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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It will not. The two state-based actions (removing the counters, and sending it to the graveyard) are both applicable to the skullbriar-on-the-battlefield and they are both executed simultaneously. At the first moment skullbriar is in the graveyard, it has just the one -1/-1 counter.
then why does Undying still not work if you kill an undying creature with a +1/+1 counter with Black Sun's Zenith ?
proud member of the 2011 community team
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4 months ago ::
Feb 07, 2013 - 10:28AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2011
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I think because Undying is a leaves-the-battlefield effect, no?
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4 months ago ::
Feb 07, 2013 - 10:28AM
#7
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It will not. The two state-based actions (removing the counters, and sending it to the graveyard) are both applicable to the skullbriar-on-the-battlefield and they are both executed simultaneously. At the first moment skullbriar is in the graveyard, it has just the one -1/-1 counter.
then why does Undying still not work if you kill an undying creature with a +1/+1 counter with Black Sun's Zenith ?
Because it uses LKI.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 07, 2013 - 10:28AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Mar 12, 2011
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1) No, the +1/+1 counter was annihilated with one of the -1/-1 counters as a state based action at the exact same time, Sullbriar was put into the graveyard as a state based action. All SBAs in a round of checks happen simultaneously as a single event. Then the next round of checks begins. Skullbriar will have a single -1/-1 counter in the graveyard.
2) No, Skullbriar just takes the counter with it. It's not placed on it as a result of an effect, the creature's static ability merely directly contradicts the rule, that counters vanish when an object changes zones. Thus the golden rule comes into effect and the card takes precedent, negating the rule.
I'm a Rules Advisor now  "Simple questions" usually need rather complex answers, while complex questions often come down to no more than a simple "yes" or "no". Some of my favorite Flavor texts:
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4 months ago ::
Feb 07, 2013 - 10:28AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2006
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2) Skullbriar keeping the counters is not an effect, but a static ability
so there is no contradiction there
Static abilities have effects.
Magic The Gathering DCI Rules Advisor Don't hesitate to post rules question in the Rules Q&A forum for me and other competent advisors to answer : http://community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/75842/134778/Rules_Q38A
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4 months ago ::
Feb 07, 2013 - 10:29AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jan 19, 2003
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then why does Undying still not work if you kill an undying creature with a +1/+1 counter with Black Sun's Zenith ?
To determine whether the ability should trigger, the game checks last known information to see whether the creature had a +1/+1 counter. The moment that the game is checking is the moment immediately before all the state-based action were executed, which means that the creature is on the battlefield, and has both +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
This is highlighted by the following rule, though the rule is merely a clarification. It worked the same before the rule was added:
704.7. If a state-based action results in a permanent leaving the battlefield at the same time other state-based actions were performed, that permanent's last known information is derived from the game state before any of those state-based actions were performed.
Example: You control Young Wolf, a 1/1 creature with undying, and it has a +1/+1 counter on it. A spell puts three -1/-1 counters on Young Wolf. Before state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf has one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters on it. After state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf is in the graveyard. When it was last on the battlefield, it had a +1/+1 counter on it, so undying will not trigger.
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