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4 months ago ::
Feb 07, 2013 - 3:01AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2011
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i want to make sure i understand how the replacement effect of Clone works. [the reason i want to know this, is because eventually i want to ask a more complicated question involving [Vesuva  and any shockland (such as Sacred Foundry  ). so i know Clone's ability generates a replacement effect, because of: === 614.1c. Effects that read "[This permanent] enters the battlefield with . . . ," "As [this permanent] enters the battlefield . . . ," or "[This permanent] enters the battlefield as . . . " are replacement effects.=== and i *think* i make the choice of what Clone copies before it enters the battlefield, mostly because it "makes sense" or that's how i always played with it (or because gatherer's rulings imply this). ` the following rule might be relevant, but i'm not sure because Clone doesn't actually use the word "choice" in its text box: === 614.12a. If a replacement effect that modifies how a permanent enters the battlefield requires a choice, that choice is made before the permanent enters the battlefield. === anyhow, i know the above. but i'm not 100% sure what the replacement effect is replacing. here are some guesses: GUESS ONE: Clone's replacement effect is replacing the event: == "Put Clone onto the battlefield" (short for "Turn the Clone spell into a Clone permanent, by putting the Clone card onto the battlefield") == with the following modified event: == "The controller of the Clone spell may choose a creature on the battlefield. If they don't, put Clone onto the battlefield. If they do, put Clone onto the battlefield AND generate a continuous effect that says "Clone is a copy of the chosen creature" == this make sense to me. GUESS TWO: something horribly more complicated! Clone's replacement effect is replacing the event: == "Put Clone onto the battlefield." == with the following modified event: == "The controller of the Clone spell may choose a creature on the battlefield. If they do, copy that creature's characteristics onto the Clone spell, then resolve this modified Clone spell. Otherwise, put Clone onto the battlfield". == so if someone can clarify exactly what Clone's replacement effect is replacing, and what it's replacing it with, i'd appreciate it. once i understand this, i'll ask my Vesuva/shockland question.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 07, 2013 - 3:10AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Mar 12, 2011
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Your first guess is the correct one, though the event replaced is "Clone enters the battlefield". Also, while Clone  doesn't use the word "choice", you still have to make one. And yes, you have to choose a creature to copy before Clone actually enters the battlfield, so it can't copy any creature entering the field at the same time as itself.
I'm a Rules Advisor now  "Simple questions" usually need rather complex answers, while complex questions often come down to no more than a simple "yes" or "no". Some of my favorite Flavor texts:
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4 months ago ::
Feb 07, 2013 - 3:15AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2011
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===
Your first guess is the correct one, though the event replaced is "Clone enters the battlefield".
===
so to be clear, Clone's replacement effect is replacing the event
==
Clone enters the battlefield.
==
with
==
Clone's controller may choose a creature on the battlefield. If they don't, Clone enters the battlefield. If they do, Clone enters the battlefield, and generate a continuous effect that says "Clone is a copy of the chosen creature"
==
?
is it correct of me to speak of events being replaced, in this example?
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4 months ago ::
Feb 07, 2013 - 3:18AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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over-convoluted, but basically correct
also, while you generally can choose the order of replacement effects, Copy-effects always have to be applied first (for now)
proud member of the 2011 community team
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4 months ago ::
Feb 07, 2013 - 3:21AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Oct 18, 2009
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===
Your first guess is the correct one, though the event replaced is "Clone enters the battlefield".
===
so to be clear, Clone's replacement effect is replacing the event
==
Clone enters the battlefield.
==
with
==
Clone's controller may choose a creature on the battlefield. If they don't, Clone enters the battlefield. If they do, Clone enters the battlefield, and generate a continuous effect that says "Clone is a copy of the chosen creature"
==
?
is it correct of me to speak of events being replaced, in this example?
The copy effect is not continuous, it's a one-shot effect. It simply becomes a copy of the creature and stay that way as if it always were another instance of the copied object from the start. So it would be more like: ==
Clone's controller may choose a creature on the battlefield. If they don't, Clone enters the battlefield. If they do, Clone copies all copiable values of that creature, then it enters the battlefield.
== Otherwise, yes, it's an event being replaced by something that is basically the same event plus something (A being replaced with B-then-A-then-C).
[<o>]
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4 months ago ::
Feb 07, 2013 - 3:21AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2011
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note: this post written before i saw will_dice's answer is it over-convoluted? how would you put it? so by this reasoning, if i play a Vesuva  and i choose my Sacred Foundry to copy, Sacred Foundry's replacement effect will never apply to my Vesuva; my Vesuva is only a Sacred Foundry at the time it is on the battlefield, instead of as it is entering the battlefield. Therefore, i couldn't pay two life even if i wanted to. is my reasoning for the Vesuva/shockland scenario correct?
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4 months ago ::
Feb 07, 2013 - 3:24AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2011
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will_dice, your answer clears things up for me very well.
now, i'm wondering if someone can show me that i should have theoretically been able to come up with this answer that will_dice gave me, just by looking at the comp rules?
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4 months ago ::
Feb 07, 2013 - 3:25AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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no, it's wrong Vesuva is a Sacred Foundry shortly before it enters the battlefield you do have the option to pay 2 life, but that will still not let it enter untapped (because Vesuva still says "enters tapped") think of the Clone effects applying in a "limbo", and only after all are done it will be allowed to enter the battlefield
proud member of the 2011 community team
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4 months ago ::
Feb 07, 2013 - 3:27AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Mar 12, 2011
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The copy effect is not continuous, it's a one-shot effect. It simply becomes a copy of the creature and stay that way as if it always were another instance of the copied object from the start. So it would be more like:
This is simply incorrect, copy effects are continous effects, that overwrite an object's characteristics in layer 1 of applying continous effects.
I'm a Rules Advisor now "Simple questions" usually need rather complex answers, while complex questions often come down to no more than a simple "yes" or "no". Some of my favorite Flavor texts:
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4 months ago ::
Feb 07, 2013 - 3:31AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2011
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T_T Enigma, i don't understand why Vesuva is a Sacred Foundry shortly before it enters the battlefield, and it makes me question whether i understood the Clone example, too!
tell me where my mistake is in my reasoning:
(edit: i'm taking will_dice's answer to be correct, here)
Vesuva's replacement effect is replacing
==
Vesuva enters the battlefield
==
with
==
Vesuva's owner may choose a land on the battlefield. If they don't, Vesuva enters the battlefield. If they do, Vesuva copies all copiable characteristics of that land, then Vesuva enters the battlefield.
==
....
oh.
i bolded the part that just brought me an insight. this modified event has Vesuva entering the battlefield... /with the enters-the-battlefield ability of Sacred Foundry/ on it.
so, are you saying that
an event can have a replacement effect applied to it, creating a modified event.
but then when that modified event is carried out, a /new/ replacement effect that wasn't there before has to be carried out... and you get a twice-modified event that has to be carried out?
wow, this is crazy.
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