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I usually play mutli-player Magic with a group of 5 people. This includes myself, my boyfriend, another couple, and our single friend. Myself and the girl in the other relationship are both playing Orzhov now, and we have relatively similar decks since we both bought the Orzhov intro pack. I am now faced with a couple of problems, one being how to best play my Orzhov deck in multi-player and unfortunately, reccuring biases.

Let me start with asking if anyone has any advice how to effectively play Orzhov without earning a huge target on your forehead. When we started out our first couple multi-player matches after Gatecrash was released, I extorted whenever I possibly could, as did the other girl. My single friend made it his mission to take us both down, as he hates lifegain and saw us as the biggest threat. He let me in on some advice when the other girl left the room, that I could probably get away with extorting just a couple times at the start, then wait and hit everyone much later on in the game to avoid constantly drawing aggro the whole game. I see his point, but the temptation to extort when I can is quite hard to ignore. And of course that may have been his way of convincing me not to drain his life, so if I could get any more advice on Orzhov multi-player it would be appreciated.

Now, the recurring biases. Long before Gatecrash came out, myself, my boyfriend, and our single friend have noticed that the guy in the other relationship will not attack his girlfriend in multi-player. Let me make it clear that I will attack my boyfriend, and he will attack me, especially when the situation calls for it. But the other guy doesn't dare attack his girl. In fact, it will almost seem as though he will try to help her win, by "screwing up" when he does attack her (which seems to happen at the start just to say he attacked her but it doesn't tend to happen again), causing him to lose his creatures because he "didn't notice something" on her field. He has done things like prevented 3 damage heading towards her and actually proliferated the counters on her planeswalker once, causing her to win the game (in a FREE-FOR-ALL match...).

Since myself and the other girl both have Orzhov decks, who do you think the guy focuses down first? Me, every time, and it is really starting to get on my nerves. His excuse is "we have to get rid of one of the Orzhov players", yet once he has me dead he will then turn and target anyone other than his girlfriend in every single Gatecrash match we played... everyone else agrees that she extorts way more than I do, making her more of a threat, yet he decides to target me and kill me off every time. 

I am unsure how to handle this and neither do my boyfriend and other friend. We all think this is very unfair of the guy in the relationship to be doing this.

If anyone has any words of wisdom on one or both of these issues on mine, please let me know.

First, welcome to the forums!

Second, the bias. Wow. That sucks. Personally, if anything like that happens, I would make a whipping noise "Wwhttch!!!" so they can get the subtle hint that that guy has no backbone. Or, even better, talk to the girlfriend and see what she thinks of it. OR, play two-headed giant...and encourage the single guy to find a girlfriend. (just kidding)

Third, Orzhov is interesting because there are many lifegain decks. Extort, to me, seems more like a control ability more than anything. That is, you need more control in order to use it. First, we could help you better if you posted your deck here. Just look down a bit to see how to autocard, which links the name to the gatherer image. An observation I've made about Extort is that most of the extort cards are very bleh. Generic 2/2 with extort; 1/4 vigilance extrot; 1/1 spurrdy erxtert, etc. If you want a real multiplayer winner, look at vizkopa guildmage , especially her 1st ability. If you leave 3 mana open, people will think twice about attacking you with a big creature. Otherwise, look at generic lifegain staples for multiplayer; congregate , boon reflection , beacon of immortality , etc. The lifegain should be all of the protection you'll need, that and maybe a holy day or two in case somebody plops down a coat of arms .

If you want the secret to orzhov, it is to simply drain them as much as possible.

Indeed, welcome to the forums, Jaylastar24!

That Vizkopa Guildmage is ugly; if you are not running 4, you should be.

I am not running BW Extort, so much as I am putting some Extort cards into my BW Last Laugh deck.  I run 8post (4 each Cloudpost , Glimmerpost ) to power out ridiculous Exsanguinate s.  If that doesn't finish my opponents, Felidar Sovereign is there for its alternate win, Storm Herd is there for a flying swarm, and multiple Last Laugh s and Phyrexian Rebirth s are there as backup plans. 

Another BW deck of mine that will be getting some Extort support involves slowly bleeding opponents and regularly purging the field with Cleansing .  Extort is made for the deck.

If you are not taking full advantage of the extra life you are gaining, you should, primarily through playing cards that require life as part of a cost.  Luckily, that may be Black's forte.  Phyrexian Arena and Bloodgift Demon come to mind, but Reanimate , Bringer of the Black Dawn , Yawgmoth's Bargain , Necrologia , Seizan, Perverter of Truth , and such are available, as well.  Trading life for cards is always a great deal... Well of Lost Dreams ?

Oh, a random bit of awesome lifegain for MP is Exquisite Blood . 

As for the teaming situation, if directly talking about it won't or can't work, perhaps an unspoken team of your own to remove one member of the pair?  This may bode ill in the long run or it could make its point.  Either way, it is a tough call.  Good luck with it.

Cheers!

One note: In the current rules, it looks like giving a creature lifelink causes its controller to gain life, not you. There's conflicting reminder text on different cards, but the comprehensive rulebook as of the beginning of this month gives this ruling:

702.14b Damage dealt by a source with lifelink causes that source's controller, or its owner if it has no controller, to gain that much life (in addition to any other results that damage causes). See rule 119.3.

So Vizkopa Guildmage with mana open wouldn't do much to discourage attackers. It's still good if you have big attackers of your own, and the second ability is excellent.

Feb 5, 2013 -- 7:50AM, infamado wrote:

One note: In the current rules, it looks like giving a creature lifelink causes its controller to gain life, not you. There's conflicting reminder text on different cards, but the comprehensive rulebook as of the beginning of this month gives this ruling:

702.14b Damage dealt by a source with lifelink causes that source's controller, or its owner if it has no controller, to gain that much life (in addition to any other results that damage causes). See rule 119.3.

So Vizkopa Guildmage with mana open wouldn't do much to discourage attackers. It's still good if you have big attackers of your own, and the second ability is excellent.

Gah!

Thanks.

...good thing I didn't use it like I intended.

I've had situations like that come up where one opponent didn't want to attack another opponent for whatever reason. You just have to address it at the table. When he does something foolish to give his girlfriend a win call him out on it. If you say something to him like "oh, I get it, you want her to win". If he doesn't address what he's doing and give valid reasoning that everyone can understand then at least you've brought the topic out in the open. Even if he does have a valid reason which he explains at least he knows that you're watching him and maybe in the future he'll think twice about offering victory to her. Also by addressing it on the spot you will ensure that she knows and is aware of the situation. I can't honestly think that she desires to win on the back of her boyfriend's sacrifice so maybe as you continue to point out his wrongdoing then the behavior will change.

My second advice (which is really my first advice but I understand that it isn't for everyone) is that it his actions will only bother you as much as you let it bother you. I once played 5 games in a row where my wife won the game off of a coalition victory . It was 3 player games and regardless of what I did my buddy would aggressively try to take me out. I guess he expected that because I was the more experienced player that I would have some kind of plan. It bothered me after the third game but by the 5th game I was just looking forward to the challenge of defeating this coalition victory deck. In the end we played 8-10 games and she won 6 or 7 of them but I was able to have fun in spite of that.

Because of my sucess in 1 vs 1 games all of my friends attack me first and in multiplayer games my win percentage is probably slightly below the usual percentage (33.3% for 3 player; 25% for 4 player; 20% for 5 player etc...). Still I enjoy multiplayer and I wear my title as "Archenemy" as a badge of honor. Speaking of "Archenemy"....

There are formats such as "Archenemy" where one player faces of against the other players. Maybe it would be a good idea to get him to attack her by making him or her the "archenemy". Also I've played formats like attack right defend left and other multiplayer variants where each player must attack only one other player which might make things a little more fair. At least this way if he chooses to make poor decisions at least he's only affecting himself and not impacting the rest of the game (although the situation could come up, but it will come up less often with random seating).

Hopefully the situation gets resolved but if not then I suggest trying some other formats. Here are a couple I enjoy

Attack right defend left
Assassin
Star
Two headed Giant
Emporer

I know there are others I might be forgetting. I've played archenemy and I didn't really enjoy it but maybe you will like it.

Others have given great advice about the bias problem- bring it out to the group. If it continues to happen, perhaps create a deal, even publicly at the table, that other three players band together to take out one of the couple who are working together.

As for the deck, are you limited to just gatecrash cards? Just standard cards? Or anything and gatrecrash is just what you bought?

I'll just give general advice since I don't know your budget and limitations. There are some excellent walls that help drive attacks away. Wall of Hope , Wall of Souls , Souls of the Faultless , and even Basilica Guards will help you survive an early rush. There are even flying walls like Angelic Wall . Wall of Omens can be excellent also, it will help you dig further into your deck when you draw it so even late game it isn't bad.

Blind Obedience could be very handy in slowing down your opponents, but that card will almost always draw you hate. Exsanguinate and Blood Tithe can help make sure you live long enough to actually finish your opponents. One of the best things about Exsanguinate is if you have two, the first one bascially guarantees that you live long enough to cast the second one. 

You can also look into cards that will do a lot when they get killed by the aggressive player going after you- Perilous Myr , any thing with deathtouch, or something like Mortis Dogs .   

Play things like Maddening Imp , Master Warcraft and Mindslaver so you can make the guy attack his girlfriend ;-)

Feb 10, 2013 -- 3:02PM, ThissonTheBlack wrote:

Play things like Maddening Imp , Master Warcraft and Mindslaver so you can make the guy attack his girlfriend ;-)

Yes.

Feb 4, 2013 -- 2:55PM, Jaylastar24 wrote:

Let me start with asking if anyone has any advice how to effectively play Orzhov without earning a huge target on your forehead. When we started out our first couple multi-player matches after Gatecrash was released, I extorted whenever I possibly could, as did the other girl. My single friend made it his mission to take us both down, as he hates lifegain and saw us as the biggest threat. He let me in on some advice when the other girl left the room, that I could probably get away with extorting just a couple times at the start, then wait and hit everyone much later on in the game to avoid constantly drawing aggro the whole game. I see his point, but the temptation to extort when I can is quite hard to ignore. And of course that may have been his way of convincing me not to drain his life, so if I could get any more advice on Orzhov multi-player it would be appreciated.

His advice is sound in terms of the end goal.  If you are hitting everyone and sitting on a comfortable life total why wouldn't they attack you?  Multiplayer can be a very social beast as you are clearly discovering.  There are various ways to tackle this...my own preferred method is professionally.  If they are constantly attacking you it's because they consider you an easy target or a considerable opponent.  I strongly suggest adjusting your plans with a specific goal in mind: winning.  It's very easy to deal with people "hating" on you when you win a significant amount of games.

Now, the recurring biases. Long before Gatecrash came out, myself, my boyfriend, and our single friend have noticed that the guy in the other relationship will not attack his girlfriend in multi-player. Let me make it clear that I will attack my boyfriend, and he will attack me, especially when the situation calls for it. But the other guy doesn't dare attack his girl. In fact, it will almost seem as though he will try to help her win, by "screwing up" when he does attack her (which seems to happen at the start just to say he attacked her but it doesn't tend to happen again), causing him to lose his creatures because he "didn't notice something" on her field. He has done things like prevented 3 damage heading towards her and actually proliferated the counters on her planeswalker once, causing her to win the game (in a FREE-FOR-ALL match...).

I'd say you need to adjust your view of what a "free for all match" means.  He is "free" to do whatever he wants.  If you have a problem with that, than do something.

What is his goal?
He wants his girlfriend to win.
His "goal" is for her to win.

Your goal:  win the game...or at least make him lose his.

Get what I'm saying?

You can make this a social issue, sure...but when it comes to being a good multiplayer you have to realize many factors.  One of these factors is that each game is connected.  Who won last game has weight with who will be attacked in the next.  Deals made or broken in the previous game will impact the next.  If his girlfriend likes what he's doing he will continue doing it.  If he continues to reach his goal why would he stop?  If you can't win (as it seems you have two very direct enemies in this "free-for-all") than at least stop him...most likely by stopping her.

Since myself and the other girl both have Orzhov decks, who do you think the guy focuses down first? Me, every time, and it is really starting to get on my nerves. His excuse is "we have to get rid of one of the Orzhov players", yet once he has me dead he will then turn and target anyone other than his girlfriend in every single Gatecrash match we played... everyone else agrees that she extorts way more than I do, making her more of a threat, yet he decides to target me and kill me off every time. 

I am unsure how to handle this and neither do my boyfriend and other friend. We all think this is very unfair of the guy in the relationship to be doing this.

If anyone has any words of wisdom on one or both of these issues on mine, please let me know.

I suggest reading some material by Niche, he has several guides in this subforum concerning multiplayer play and behavior.  While I don't agree with everything that vast majority is rather sound.

In parting, you need to decide what you want out of the game.  I personally find winning to be quite satisfactory but my friends know that if I feel slighted I will return in kind.  Many games have "kingmakers" and if I can't win than I'll make sure I have an impact at the very least.

Good draws to you ma'am,
~Rae~

Welcome to the forums! 
I'd second the suggestion to check out Niche's stuff. He's a great deckbuilder.
For a casual Orzhov deck, I'd use Ghostly Prison , Lingering Souls , Wall of Omens , and Wall of the Faultless for early defense. I'd also run s couple Sorin, Lord of Innistrad if you can get him. Crypt Ghast and Pontiff of Blight would combine for a cool wincon in conjunction with tokens. You also want a few board wipes, just in case, and some cards to help with politics, like Hunted Lammasu . 
Multiplayer can be an interesting beast. My casual playgroup is particularly hilarious; we're all old friends who've known each other forever, and most of us play crazy, over-the-top decks. On the other hand, I'm the one who introduced everyone to the game, and am the most skilled at deckbuilding, so I usually get a bit of a target on my back. I've found that the best way to balance this out it to just make the deck appear as 'fun' as possible, through a tribal subtheme, using 'pet' cards instead of tournament staples, and so forth, while still keeping it capable of winning.
Good luck! 

If you want to stop the recurring bias, try this:

Make a very weak deck that does practically nothing and interacts with no one. Play this deck over and over until the other players find that you are no real threat and they will become focused on other players. Then later, when they have totally forgotten about you and that bias has begun to shift, play one of the decks you like to play, and ease off the gas a bit, so that they don't just initially go "Omg, he's playing one of his good decks, dog pile!". After a certain number of games like this, the bias will have shifted.

An alternative to the weak deck that does nothing, is the group hug deck that purposefully goes out of its way to make the experience fun for everyone else but you. Play this deck over and over until the players find that, much like the weak deck that does nothing, you are no real threat, and they will focus other players.

The success of this method really depends on your patience and your grace in losing. Depending on the people you play with you might have to play that weak/group hug deck for a ton of games before the bias shifts.

Or just play a deck designed to make the game as fun as possible for everyone. 

there's a couple of friends in my group that also run orzhov, and we do make it a mission to kill them first. just don't run orzhov :P if you do, make it innocent. play it safe and don't hurt anybody, then late in the game slam down a super powerful spell that could win you the game.

my rule of thumb: if your going to play a deck that pisses people off, you better be able to hold your own. i run a manabarbs deck that really ticks everybody off. but i make sure i have all of my combo pieces on the table (all pretty innocent on their own, like tamanoa , sphere of safety , war's toll kind of pushes it), and make a conscious effort to just lay back and wait until i can completely control the board

if you dont have any strategies to winning the game in that fashion, try playing with other decks. having more than 1 deck makes you unpredictable, nobody will know if your running orzhov for a few turns

homestly multiplayer kitchen table magic is all about politics. if you start agitating people, you better have a plan or its not going to be a fun time for you. your friend gave you some good advice on not extorting for a while, in fact, i'd wait to even play your extort guys so you dont seem threatening. i suggest looking for a couple more powerful cards that can quickly win you the game, or to assemble some combos that may appear innocent but end of giving you control of the board

good luck playing with your friends :P first rule is try to have fun, and if your not achieving that there's other problems you and your friends should fix first 

Play the Hunted cyle creatures....  they're giant in MP.

 

Feb 5, 2013 -- 2:52AM, krichaiushii wrote:

I am not running BW Extort, so much as I am putting some Extort cards into my BW Last Laugh deck.  I run 8post (4 each Cloudpost , Glimmerpost ) to power out ridiculous Exsanguinate s.  If that doesn't finish my opponents, Felidar Sovereign is there for its alternate win, Storm Herd is there for a flying swarm, and multiple Last Laugh s and Phyrexian Rebirth s are there as backup plans. 

Another BW deck of mine that will be getting some Extort support involves slowly bleeding opponents and regularly purging the field with Cleansing .  Extort is made for the deck.

If you are not taking full advantage of the extra life you are gaining, you should, primarily through playing cards that require life as part of a cost.  Luckily, that may be Black's forte.  Phyrexian Arena and Bloodgift Demon come to mind, but Reanimate , Bringer of the Black Dawn , Yawgmoth's Bargain , Necrologia , Seizan, Perverter of Truth , and such are available, as well.  Trading life for cards is always a great deal... Well of Lost Dreams ?

Oh, a random bit of awesome lifegain for MP is Exquisite Blood . 

That sounds like a nice deck you're running!  I never thought of using Posts in a lifegain deck....
Any chance you could post a basic look of your list here?

May 9, 2013 -- 2:23AM, slave wrote:

That sounds like a nice deck you're running!  I never thought of using Posts in a lifegain deck....
Any chance you could post a basic look of your list here?

Sure.

Land 26
8x Swamp
6x Plains
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
3x Thespian's Stage ( Vesuva out of budget)
1x Fetid Heath

Creatures 4
2x Felidar Sovereign
2x Vizkopa Guildmage (I have yet to get to trigger its ability, but the potential is strong)

Noncreatures 32
4x Last Laugh
4x Sun Droplet
4x Vow of Duty
3x Syphon Mind
3x Expedition Map (guess I need a fourth)
3x Barter in Blood
2x Phyrexian Rebirth
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Exsanguinate
2x Debt to the Deathless (formerly more Exsanguinates)
1x Storm Herd
1x Dregs of Sorrow (would love to see this in black, modern borders)
1x Diabolic Revelation

Strategies: use Expedition Map to fetch Cloudposts; gain scads of life with Exsanguinate and Debt; Vows provide extra permanents that trigger Last Laugh (and make for politicking fun); Sovereign provides an alternate win if necessary.  The rest is for support and just because they are fun.

Experience: Last Laugh acts as a board sweeper and often a game ender, as ANY permanent hitting the bin triggers it, not just critters.  One of my favorite plays involve casting Phyrexian Rebirth while LL is in play, killing off most opponents and then finishing the last one with the giant token dude PR gives me.  Another involves massive Storm Herds with LL in play, then provoking mutually assured destruction by deliberately getting one of the tokens killed.  Multiple Sun Droplets are wicked and steer opponents away unless they can swing for lethal damage.  Typing out the list makes me realize that I need to actually ADD the extort cards (either the defender, the vigilant guy, or the black flyer).

In short, every metagame should have a deck based on Last Laugh .  Surviving Last Laugh (sometimes) is how I take advantage of life gained.

Cheers!