I usually play mutli-player Magic with a group of 5 people. This includes myself, my boyfriend, another couple, and our single friend. Myself and the girl in the other relationship are both playing Orzhov now, and we have relatively similar decks since we both bought the Orzhov intro pack. I am now faced with a couple of problems, one being how to best play my Orzhov deck in multi-player and unfortunately, reccuring biases.
Let me start with asking if anyone has any advice how to effectively play Orzhov without earning a huge target on your forehead. When we started out our first couple multi-player matches after Gatecrash was released, I extorted whenever I possibly could, as did the other girl. My single friend made it his mission to take us both down, as he hates lifegain and saw us as the biggest threat. He let me in on some advice when the other girl left the room, that I could probably get away with extorting just a couple times at the start, then wait and hit everyone much later on in the game to avoid constantly drawing aggro the whole game. I see his point, but the temptation to extort when I can is quite hard to ignore. And of course that may have been his way of convincing me not to drain his life, so if I could get any more advice on Orzhov multi-player it would be appreciated.
Now, the recurring biases. Long before Gatecrash came out, myself, my boyfriend, and our single friend have noticed that the guy in the other relationship will not attack his girlfriend in multi-player. Let me make it clear that I will attack my boyfriend, and he will attack me, especially when the situation calls for it. But the other guy doesn't dare attack his girl. In fact, it will almost seem as though he will try to help her win, by "screwing up" when he does attack her (which seems to happen at the start just to say he attacked her but it doesn't tend to happen again), causing him to lose his creatures because he "didn't notice something" on her field. He has done things like prevented 3 damage heading towards her and actually proliferated the counters on her planeswalker once, causing her to win the game (in a FREE-FOR-ALL match...).
Since myself and the other girl both have Orzhov decks, who do you think the guy focuses down first? Me, every time, and it is really starting to get on my nerves. His excuse is "we have to get rid of one of the Orzhov players", yet once he has me dead he will then turn and target anyone other than his girlfriend in every single Gatecrash match we played... everyone else agrees that she extorts way more than I do, making her more of a threat, yet he decides to target me and kill me off every time.
I am unsure how to handle this and neither do my boyfriend and other friend. We all think this is very unfair of the guy in the relationship to be doing this.
If anyone has any words of wisdom on one or both of these issues on mine, please let me know.
Second, the bias. Wow. That sucks. Personally, if anything like that happens, I would make a whipping noise "Wwhttch!!!" so they can get the subtle hint that that guy has no backbone. Or, even better, talk to the girlfriend and see what she thinks of it. OR, play two-headed giant...and encourage the single guy to find a girlfriend. (just kidding)
Third, Orzhov is interesting because there are many lifegain decks. Extort, to me, seems more like a control ability more than anything. That is, you need more control in order to use it. First, we could help you better if you posted your deck here. Just look down a bit to see how to autocard, which links the name to the gatherer image. An observation I've made about Extort is that most of the extort cards are very bleh. Generic 2/2 with extort; 1/4 vigilance extrot; 1/1 spurrdy erxtert, etc. If you want a real multiplayer winner, look at vizkopa guildmage , especially her 1st ability. If you leave 3 mana open, people will think twice about attacking you with a big creature. Otherwise, look at generic lifegain staples for multiplayer; congregate , boon reflection , beacon of immortality , etc. The lifegain should be all of the protection you'll need, that and maybe a holy day or two in case somebody plops down a coat of arms .
If you want the secret to orzhov, it is to simply drain them as much as possible.
HOW TO AUTOCARD! When posting in a text box, type [c]Plains[/c] to make your post showPlains . Are you making a casual mill deck? Please read.Show
Control is the key of a mill deck. You should free up your mana as much as possible so that you can respond to whatever your opponent is doing. Having some way to remove threats, both real and percieved, is necessary to survival. Real threats are those that are already on the field, and are something a simple unsummon or doom blade can remove. Percieved threats are those that aren't on the field, something a simple duress or counterspell can deal with. Controlling the board will allow your mill deck to continuously perform, if you use permanent style mill, that is.
One-Shot Mill spells are something you should avoid. You can toss tome scour s at your opponent until your hand runs out, but that isn't going to be enough to mill them to death. With 1-shot mill spells, like tome scour , you have to treat them like burn spells. Therefore, the only "good" 1-shot mill spells are sanity grinding (in the right deck) and mind funeral . Try to find more permanent styles of milling, like memory erosion , hedron crab , and curse of the bloody tome , so that you don't have to waste your mana each turn doing something that those permanents can do with a single mana/turn investment. Keeping your mana open allows you to respond with control elements.
Traumatize Rant. Traumatize is a terrible card for a multitude of reasons. First, it costs 5 to cast, which is a large investment for a mill deck. Milling half a library sounds neat, but if you do the math, it really isn't that much. An average 60 card deck starts with drawing 7 cards. Then, barring any draw spells on their end, or ramp on yours, 5 turns will go by, where they draw 5 more cards, leaving 48 in the deck. Unless they had a deck with more than 60 cards, or you ramped it out, the most you'll ever mill with a single Traumatize on turn 5 is 24 cards. That's not too shabby, but hang on, there's more! If they drew any additional cards or if they were milled before turn 5, that number will be much lower. In addition, any more Traumatize's you draw will only mill less and less as the game goes on...which is the point of a mill deck. My whole point on Traumatize is the it is NOT worth the 5 mana investment, not even with haunting echoes . You can mill more than 24 before turn 5...which you can then cast the echoes.
If you look at a mill deck like a burn deck, you'll notice that it takes longer to win with mill than with burn. For example, lightning bolt costs 1 and does 3 out of the 20 damage needed to win (barring any lifegain or damage prevention). For mill, that same investment of 1 would have to mill 9 cards out of an average 60 card deck to be the equivilent of lightning bolt . The problem is that there is no mill card that can do that...except hedron crab , over a period of time. The initial investment of 1 will pay off in 3 more land drops to make the crab equal to a bolt. However, the crab nets you more mill beyond those 3 land drops, making it better as the game draws on. Other cards, like curse of the bloody tome , are excellent ways of milling an opponent because the initial investment of is all you have to pay in order to put your opponent on a clock. All you have to do is stay alive, which is the true goal of a mill strategy.
There are other ideas for mill decks that are specific to certain types of strategies. Combo mill decks can mill an entire player's library out from under them. Secondary mill strategies are usually tied to another strategy, like drowner of secrets in a merfolk deck, or halimar excavator in an ally deck. Milling can be done in certain decks that are able to ramp out enough mana to make use of the higher costing mill spells, like using 16 x post to pay for X on sands of delirium or for ambassador laquatus . Multiplayer mill decks are even tougher to build, but can be done. Being a slower environment[/c], it is easier to ramp in multiplayer, allowing for big X spells, like mind grind , to be useful. Consuming aberration is another star player. The more straightforward strategy is to use mesmeric orb and dreamborn muse while being the only deck at the table that can deal with it . There are always new strategies coming out with each new set, so check gatherer for any new mill cards that you find to be the most fun for you!
Now you can say that you haven't fallen into the trap that most new players fall into when they build their first mill deck!
: Order, Law, Faith. : Knowledge, Artifice, Control. : Corruption, Death, Self-Interest. : Freedom, Destruction, Victory. : Nature, Growth, Life. : Progressive, but too controlling. : Focused, but short sighted. : Skilled, but hypocritical. : Unified, but without a sense of self. : Cunning, but devious. : Inquisitive, but incautious. : Rational, but impulsive. : Powerful, but spiteful. : Instinctive, but selfish. : Fearless, but reckless.
That Vizkopa Guildmage is ugly; if you are not running 4, you should be.
I am not running BW Extort, so much as I am putting some Extort cards into my BW Last Laugh deck. I run 8post (4 each Cloudpost , Glimmerpost ) to power out ridiculous Exsanguinate s. If that doesn't finish my opponents, Felidar Sovereign is there for its alternate win, Storm Herd is there for a flying swarm, and multiple Last Laugh s and Phyrexian Rebirth s are there as backup plans.
Another BW deck of mine that will be getting some Extort support involves slowly bleeding opponents and regularly purging the field with Cleansing . Extort is made for the deck.
Oh, a random bit of awesome lifegain for MP is Exquisite Blood .
As for the teaming situation, if directly talking about it won't or can't work, perhaps an unspoken team of your own to remove one member of the pair? This may bode ill in the long run or it could make its point. Either way, it is a tough call. Good luck with it.
Cheers!
A shout out to Gaming Grounds in Kent, Ohio and Gamers N Geeks in Mobile, Alabama.
www.zombiehunters.org for all your preparation needs.
http://shtfschool.com/ - why prepping is useful, from one who has been there.
One note: In the current rules, it looks like giving a creature lifelink causes its controller to gain life, not you. There's conflicting reminder text on different cards, but the comprehensive rulebook as of the beginning of this month gives this ruling:
702.14b Damage dealt by a source with lifelink causes that source's controller, or its owner if it has no controller, to gain that much life (in addition to any other results that damage causes). See rule 119.3.
So Vizkopa Guildmage with mana open wouldn't do much to discourage attackers. It's still good if you have big attackers of your own, and the second ability is excellent.
One note: In the current rules, it looks like giving a creature lifelink causes its controller to gain life, not you. There's conflicting reminder text on different cards, but the comprehensive rulebook as of the beginning of this month gives this ruling:
702.14b Damage dealt by a source with lifelink causes that source's controller, or its owner if it has no controller, to gain that much life (in addition to any other results that damage causes). See rule 119.3.
So Vizkopa Guildmage with mana open wouldn't do much to discourage attackers. It's still good if you have big attackers of your own, and the second ability is excellent.
Gah!
Thanks.
...good thing I didn't use it like I intended.
HOW TO AUTOCARD! When posting in a text box, type [c]Plains[/c] to make your post showPlains . Are you making a casual mill deck? Please read.Show
Control is the key of a mill deck. You should free up your mana as much as possible so that you can respond to whatever your opponent is doing. Having some way to remove threats, both real and percieved, is necessary to survival. Real threats are those that are already on the field, and are something a simple unsummon or doom blade can remove. Percieved threats are those that aren't on the field, something a simple duress or counterspell can deal with. Controlling the board will allow your mill deck to continuously perform, if you use permanent style mill, that is.
One-Shot Mill spells are something you should avoid. You can toss tome scour s at your opponent until your hand runs out, but that isn't going to be enough to mill them to death. With 1-shot mill spells, like tome scour , you have to treat them like burn spells. Therefore, the only "good" 1-shot mill spells are sanity grinding (in the right deck) and mind funeral . Try to find more permanent styles of milling, like memory erosion , hedron crab , and curse of the bloody tome , so that you don't have to waste your mana each turn doing something that those permanents can do with a single mana/turn investment. Keeping your mana open allows you to respond with control elements.
Traumatize Rant. Traumatize is a terrible card for a multitude of reasons. First, it costs 5 to cast, which is a large investment for a mill deck. Milling half a library sounds neat, but if you do the math, it really isn't that much. An average 60 card deck starts with drawing 7 cards. Then, barring any draw spells on their end, or ramp on yours, 5 turns will go by, where they draw 5 more cards, leaving 48 in the deck. Unless they had a deck with more than 60 cards, or you ramped it out, the most you'll ever mill with a single Traumatize on turn 5 is 24 cards. That's not too shabby, but hang on, there's more! If they drew any additional cards or if they were milled before turn 5, that number will be much lower. In addition, any more Traumatize's you draw will only mill less and less as the game goes on...which is the point of a mill deck. My whole point on Traumatize is the it is NOT worth the 5 mana investment, not even with haunting echoes . You can mill more than 24 before turn 5...which you can then cast the echoes.
If you look at a mill deck like a burn deck, you'll notice that it takes longer to win with mill than with burn. For example, lightning bolt costs 1 and does 3 out of the 20 damage needed to win (barring any lifegain or damage prevention). For mill, that same investment of 1 would have to mill 9 cards out of an average 60 card deck to be the equivilent of lightning bolt . The problem is that there is no mill card that can do that...except hedron crab , over a period of time. The initial investment of 1 will pay off in 3 more land drops to make the crab equal to a bolt. However, the crab nets you more mill beyond those 3 land drops, making it better as the game draws on. Other cards, like curse of the bloody tome , are excellent ways of milling an opponent because the initial investment of is all you have to pay in order to put your opponent on a clock. All you have to do is stay alive, which is the true goal of a mill strategy.
There are other ideas for mill decks that are specific to certain types of strategies. Combo mill decks can mill an entire player's library out from under them. Secondary mill strategies are usually tied to another strategy, like drowner of secrets in a merfolk deck, or halimar excavator in an ally deck. Milling can be done in certain decks that are able to ramp out enough mana to make use of the higher costing mill spells, like using 16 x post to pay for X on sands of delirium or for ambassador laquatus . Multiplayer mill decks are even tougher to build, but can be done. Being a slower environment[/c], it is easier to ramp in multiplayer, allowing for big X spells, like mind grind , to be useful. Consuming aberration is another star player. The more straightforward strategy is to use mesmeric orb and dreamborn muse while being the only deck at the table that can deal with it . There are always new strategies coming out with each new set, so check gatherer for any new mill cards that you find to be the most fun for you!
Now you can say that you haven't fallen into the trap that most new players fall into when they build their first mill deck!
: Order, Law, Faith. : Knowledge, Artifice, Control. : Corruption, Death, Self-Interest. : Freedom, Destruction, Victory. : Nature, Growth, Life. : Progressive, but too controlling. : Focused, but short sighted. : Skilled, but hypocritical. : Unified, but without a sense of self. : Cunning, but devious. : Inquisitive, but incautious. : Rational, but impulsive. : Powerful, but spiteful. : Instinctive, but selfish. : Fearless, but reckless.
I've had situations like that come up where one opponent didn't want to attack another opponent for whatever reason. You just have to address it at the table. When he does something foolish to give his girlfriend a win call him out on it. If you say something to him like "oh, I get it, you want her to win". If he doesn't address what he's doing and give valid reasoning that everyone can understand then at least you've brought the topic out in the open. Even if he does have a valid reason which he explains at least he knows that you're watching him and maybe in the future he'll think twice about offering victory to her. Also by addressing it on the spot you will ensure that she knows and is aware of the situation. I can't honestly think that she desires to win on the back of her boyfriend's sacrifice so maybe as you continue to point out his wrongdoing then the behavior will change.
My second advice (which is really my first advice but I understand that it isn't for everyone) is that it his actions will only bother you as much as you let it bother you. I once played 5 games in a row where my wife won the game off of a coalition victory . It was 3 player games and regardless of what I did my buddy would aggressively try to take me out. I guess he expected that because I was the more experienced player that I would have some kind of plan. It bothered me after the third game but by the 5th game I was just looking forward to the challenge of defeating this coalition victory deck. In the end we played 8-10 games and she won 6 or 7 of them but I was able to have fun in spite of that.
Because of my sucess in 1 vs 1 games all of my friends attack me first and in multiplayer games my win percentage is probably slightly below the usual percentage (33.3% for 3 player; 25% for 4 player; 20% for 5 player etc...). Still I enjoy multiplayer and I wear my title as "Archenemy" as a badge of honor. Speaking of "Archenemy"....
There are formats such as "Archenemy" where one player faces of against the other players. Maybe it would be a good idea to get him to attack her by making him or her the "archenemy". Also I've played formats like attack right defend left and other multiplayer variants where each player must attack only one other player which might make things a little more fair. At least this way if he chooses to make poor decisions at least he's only affecting himself and not impacting the rest of the game (although the situation could come up, but it will come up less often with random seating).
Hopefully the situation gets resolved but if not then I suggest trying some other formats. Here are a couple I enjoy
Attack right defend left Assassin Star Two headed Giant Emporer
I know there are others I might be forgetting. I've played archenemy and I didn't really enjoy it but maybe you will like it.
Others have given great advice about the bias problem- bring it out to the group. If it continues to happen, perhaps create a deal, even publicly at the table, that other three players band together to take out one of the couple who are working together.
As for the deck, are you limited to just gatecrash cards? Just standard cards? Or anything and gatrecrash is just what you bought?
I'll just give general advice since I don't know your budget and limitations. There are some excellent walls that help drive attacks away. Wall of Hope , Wall of Souls , Souls of the Faultless , and even Basilica Guards will help you survive an early rush. There are even flying walls like Angelic Wall . Wall of Omens can be excellent also, it will help you dig further into your deck when you draw it so even late game it isn't bad.
Blind Obedience could be very handy in slowing down your opponents, but that card will almost always draw you hate. Exsanguinate and Blood Tithe can help make sure you live long enough to actually finish your opponents. One of the best things about Exsanguinate is if you have two, the first one bascially guarantees that you live long enough to cast the second one.
You can also look into cards that will do a lot when they get killed by the aggressive player going after you- Perilous Myr , any thing with deathtouch, or something like Mortis Dogs .
Face it, you're pretty much here as a meat shield.
If you are at York College and need a play group, PM me. We mostly do MP and casual.
HOW TO AUTOCARD! When posting in a text box, type [c]Plains[/c] to make your post showPlains . Are you making a casual mill deck? Please read.Show
Control is the key of a mill deck. You should free up your mana as much as possible so that you can respond to whatever your opponent is doing. Having some way to remove threats, both real and percieved, is necessary to survival. Real threats are those that are already on the field, and are something a simple unsummon or doom blade can remove. Percieved threats are those that aren't on the field, something a simple duress or counterspell can deal with. Controlling the board will allow your mill deck to continuously perform, if you use permanent style mill, that is.
One-Shot Mill spells are something you should avoid. You can toss tome scour s at your opponent until your hand runs out, but that isn't going to be enough to mill them to death. With 1-shot mill spells, like tome scour , you have to treat them like burn spells. Therefore, the only "good" 1-shot mill spells are sanity grinding (in the right deck) and mind funeral . Try to find more permanent styles of milling, like memory erosion , hedron crab , and curse of the bloody tome , so that you don't have to waste your mana each turn doing something that those permanents can do with a single mana/turn investment. Keeping your mana open allows you to respond with control elements.
Traumatize Rant. Traumatize is a terrible card for a multitude of reasons. First, it costs 5 to cast, which is a large investment for a mill deck. Milling half a library sounds neat, but if you do the math, it really isn't that much. An average 60 card deck starts with drawing 7 cards. Then, barring any draw spells on their end, or ramp on yours, 5 turns will go by, where they draw 5 more cards, leaving 48 in the deck. Unless they had a deck with more than 60 cards, or you ramped it out, the most you'll ever mill with a single Traumatize on turn 5 is 24 cards. That's not too shabby, but hang on, there's more! If they drew any additional cards or if they were milled before turn 5, that number will be much lower. In addition, any more Traumatize's you draw will only mill less and less as the game goes on...which is the point of a mill deck. My whole point on Traumatize is the it is NOT worth the 5 mana investment, not even with haunting echoes . You can mill more than 24 before turn 5...which you can then cast the echoes.
If you look at a mill deck like a burn deck, you'll notice that it takes longer to win with mill than with burn. For example, lightning bolt costs 1 and does 3 out of the 20 damage needed to win (barring any lifegain or damage prevention). For mill, that same investment of 1 would have to mill 9 cards out of an average 60 card deck to be the equivilent of lightning bolt . The problem is that there is no mill card that can do that...except hedron crab , over a period of time. The initial investment of 1 will pay off in 3 more land drops to make the crab equal to a bolt. However, the crab nets you more mill beyond those 3 land drops, making it better as the game draws on. Other cards, like curse of the bloody tome , are excellent ways of milling an opponent because the initial investment of is all you have to pay in order to put your opponent on a clock. All you have to do is stay alive, which is the true goal of a mill strategy.
There are other ideas for mill decks that are specific to certain types of strategies. Combo mill decks can mill an entire player's library out from under them. Secondary mill strategies are usually tied to another strategy, like drowner of secrets in a merfolk deck, or halimar excavator in an ally deck. Milling can be done in certain decks that are able to ramp out enough mana to make use of the higher costing mill spells, like using 16 x post to pay for X on sands of delirium or for ambassador laquatus . Multiplayer mill decks are even tougher to build, but can be done. Being a slower environment[/c], it is easier to ramp in multiplayer, allowing for big X spells, like mind grind , to be useful. Consuming aberration is another star player. The more straightforward strategy is to use mesmeric orb and dreamborn muse while being the only deck at the table that can deal with it . There are always new strategies coming out with each new set, so check gatherer for any new mill cards that you find to be the most fun for you!
Now you can say that you haven't fallen into the trap that most new players fall into when they build their first mill deck!
: Order, Law, Faith. : Knowledge, Artifice, Control. : Corruption, Death, Self-Interest. : Freedom, Destruction, Victory. : Nature, Growth, Life. : Progressive, but too controlling. : Focused, but short sighted. : Skilled, but hypocritical. : Unified, but without a sense of self. : Cunning, but devious. : Inquisitive, but incautious. : Rational, but impulsive. : Powerful, but spiteful. : Instinctive, but selfish. : Fearless, but reckless.
Let me start with asking if anyone has any advice how to effectively play Orzhov without earning a huge target on your forehead. When we started out our first couple multi-player matches after Gatecrash was released, I extorted whenever I possibly could, as did the other girl. My single friend made it his mission to take us both down, as he hates lifegain and saw us as the biggest threat. He let me in on some advice when the other girl left the room, that I could probably get away with extorting just a couple times at the start, then wait and hit everyone much later on in the game to avoid constantly drawing aggro the whole game. I see his point, but the temptation to extort when I can is quite hard to ignore. And of course that may have been his way of convincing me not to drain his life, so if I could get any more advice on Orzhov multi-player it would be appreciated.
His advice is sound in terms of the end goal. If you are hitting everyone and sitting on a comfortable life total why wouldn't they attack you? Multiplayer can be a very social beast as you are clearly discovering. There are various ways to tackle this...my own preferred method is professionally. If they are constantly attacking you it's because they consider you an easy target or a considerable opponent. I strongly suggest adjusting your plans with a specific goal in mind: winning. It's very easy to deal with people "hating" on you when you win a significant amount of games.
Now, the recurring biases. Long before Gatecrash came out, myself, my boyfriend, and our single friend have noticed that the guy in the other relationship will not attack his girlfriend in multi-player. Let me make it clear that I will attack my boyfriend, and he will attack me, especially when the situation calls for it. But the other guy doesn't dare attack his girl. In fact, it will almost seem as though he will try to help her win, by "screwing up" when he does attack her (which seems to happen at the start just to say he attacked her but it doesn't tend to happen again), causing him to lose his creatures because he "didn't notice something" on her field. He has done things like prevented 3 damage heading towards her and actually proliferated the counters on her planeswalker once, causing her to win the game (in a FREE-FOR-ALL match...).
I'd say you need to adjust your view of what a "free for all match" means. He is "free" to do whatever he wants. If you have a problem with that, than do something.
What is his goal? He wants his girlfriend to win. His "goal" is for her to win.
Your goal: win the game...or at least make him lose his.
Get what I'm saying?
You can make this a social issue, sure...but when it comes to being a good multiplayer you have to realize many factors. One of these factors is that each game is connected. Who won last game has weight with who will be attacked in the next. Deals made or broken in the previous game will impact the next. If his girlfriend likes what he's doing he will continue doing it. If he continues to reach his goal why would he stop? If you can't win (as it seems you have two very direct enemies in this "free-for-all") than at least stop him...most likely by stopping her.
Since myself and the other girl both have Orzhov decks, who do you think the guy focuses down first? Me, every time, and it is really starting to get on my nerves. His excuse is "we have to get rid of one of the Orzhov players", yet once he has me dead he will then turn and target anyone other than his girlfriend in every single Gatecrash match we played... everyone else agrees that she extorts way more than I do, making her more of a threat, yet he decides to target me and kill me off every time.
I am unsure how to handle this and neither do my boyfriend and other friend. We all think this is very unfair of the guy in the relationship to be doing this.
If anyone has any words of wisdom on one or both of these issues on mine, please let me know.
I suggest reading some material by Niche, he has several guides in this subforum concerning multiplayer play and behavior. While I don't agree with everything that vast majority is rather sound.
In parting, you need to decide what you want out of the game. I personally find winning to be quite satisfactory but my friends know that if I feel slighted I will return in kind. Many games have "kingmakers" and if I can't win than I'll make sure I have an impact at the very least.
(just kidding)
: Order, Law, Faith.
: Knowledge, Artifice, Control.
: Corruption, Death, Self-Interest.
: Freedom, Destruction, Victory.
: Nature, Growth, Life.
Keino
=100 Class: 
x 236 Diety: 
125/200 
=2x
dmg/
=4
dmg)
