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4 months ago ::
Feb 04, 2013 - 5:57AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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Must you get explicit permission to draw in your draw step? If not, what amout of time should you give your opponent to stop you? What resolution would a judge take if you drew and your opponent wanted to play something in your upkeep?
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4 months ago ::
Feb 04, 2013 - 6:16AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2001
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Ordinarily, giving you permission to start your turn (which most people are pretty explicit about) would be understood to include permission to draw. Considering that players do their beginning of turn routine in the wrong order all the time (and this is allowed per the out of order sequencing rules so long as no advantage is gained by doing so), the onus is very much on the player wanting to play something in your upkeep to communicate that clearly.
This is especially true given that your opponent's upkeep is one of the rarest times to want to play something - I HATE playing MTGO against opponents who put a stop there because it's a totally pointless break in the flow of the game 99+% of the time - and so it's normally safe to assume you can go through your own upkeep unhindered.
So clearly you don't need explicit permission (or every tournament I've ever seen has been run all wrong) - if a player wants to do something then he should say so instead of just saying "Go" or whatever he usually does. He's responsible for communicating clearly, not you for reading his mind.
Thinking of this (and questions of tournament procedure more generally) in terms of "how much time should I give him" puts the emphasis in entirely the wrong place (for one thing, it presupposes that poor communication has already taken place). You know very well that Magic is not a game of reflexes.
(EDIT: There will be some common-sense exceptions to this, most obviously when there are tappers on the board. Particularly ones that can hit more than just creatures.)
Jeff Heikkinen
DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
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4 months ago ::
Feb 04, 2013 - 6:17AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2012
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You don't need explicit permission -- it's on your opponent to speak up if he wants to do something. It's courteous to give him a chance, but the rules don't say anything about it. If it were ever to become an issue in a game, I'm sure that Wizards would put something into the MTR.
For now, this is the best we've got:
In general, any substantial pause is an indication that all actions have been taken, the sequence is complete and the game has moved to the appropriate point at the end of the sequence.
So a "substantial pause" implies that a player has passed priority.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 04, 2013 - 6:23AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2010
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No you don't have to get permission to draw your card in your draw step. If there is a triggered ability that an opponent controls you should give them ample time to annouce the trigger (in other words don't rush the draw). However if the opponent wishes to perform an action before you draw a card they should state that as they are passing the turn to you. Communication is key to playing a game of magic, and in general when players start a turn they will usually move quickly through the first 3 steps if they aren't aware of any other actions that other players want to make.
If a judge feels the active player didn't give their opponent an opportunity to act in the upkeep step, and if they feel the opponent clearly demonstrated they wished to act in that step, then they have the option to back the game up which would including putting a random card (if the draw card can not be uniquely identified) on top of the active players library and allow the opponent to take their action.
DCI Level 2 Judge
Rockford, Illinois
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4 months ago ::
Feb 04, 2013 - 7:36AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2009
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Drawing a card is the first thing that happens at the very beginning of the Draw step. However...
(devil's advocate)
For the game to progress to the Draw step, both players must pass priority on an empty stack in the Upkeep. So unless that has happened, are you even in your Draw step?
~ Tim
 Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D Sig
Show
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
That makes no sense to me.
If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed?
~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise  in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch  . YAY COLOR IDENTITY 
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 04, 2013 - 7:52AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2012
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Technically, no, you're not in your draw step. But kids these days never play technically.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 04, 2013 - 8:24AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2009
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Technically, no, you're not in your draw step. But kids these days never play technically.
So what happens if an opponent starts his turn, untaps his permanents and then draws a card without saying anything, and I call a Judge and say "It's still his upkeep, but he has drawn a card"?
What if that card was a Miracle, and I wanted to cast something (like land destruction, or mill) in his upkeep, but he never gave me the chance? "I was still waiting for him to pass priority to me in his Upkeep"?
~ Tim
Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D Sig
Show
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
That makes no sense to me.
If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed?
~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch . YAY COLOR IDENTITY
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 04, 2013 - 8:43AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2001
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In the first case, he would say "no it's not" and, if he happens to have one handy, slap you with a trout.
In the second, you did a poor job communicating. (Or at least that would be my default assumption, I can imagine circumstances where this wouldn't be the case but they'd be the exception, not the rule). As mentioned several times above, you should let him know you plan on doing something in his upkeep as part of passing the turn.
(This is a case where the very technical game described in the rulebook and the somewhat loosey-goosey one people actually play come apart, yes. This is not a problem. It's been that way for nearly 20 years and somehow the world hasn't ended.)
Jeff Heikkinen
DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
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4 months ago ::
Feb 04, 2013 - 9:32AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2012
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+1 on the trout. I understand that players want to wait until the last possible moment, but the sequence of events from "I end turn" to your upkeep is completely deterministic. Nothing is going to change how you play if I tell you I'm planning on casting something in your upkeep.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 04, 2013 - 9:44AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2011
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As mentioned several times above, you should let him know you plan on doing something in his upkeep as part of passing the turn.
What if I want to prevent the situation where I say "Pass turn, do (something) on your upkeep," and my opponent responds with "Wait, do (something else) on your end step"?
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