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5 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 3:50PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2011
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man, i had thought i understood how the game knows when things trigger, but clearly i either forgot about it, or never understood it to begin with. Planar Void  's oracle text says: === Whenever another card is put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile that card. === and it has a gatherer ruling that says: === It will not trigger on itself going to the graveyard, or on any other cards going to the graveyard at the same time. This means that neither itself nor other cards put into the graveyard at the same time as it will get exiled. === i don't understand why if i cast (say) Planar Cleansing  , that Planar Void won't trigger for the other permanent cards that go to the graveyard, when (for example) a Deathgreeter  that got destroyed by planar cleansing would trigger off the other creatures that also got destroyed.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 3:59PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2011
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Abilities that trigger when a card is put into a graveyard from anywhere trigger from the graveyard. Planar Void triggers after a card hits the graveyard. If that card is Planar Void, the ability doesn't exist at that time because Planar Void isn't on the battlefield, so it won't trigger for itself or anything that enters the graveyard at the same time. Abilities that trigger when a card is put into a graveyard from the battlefield trigger from the battlefield. The game checks the state of the battlefield immediately before the permanent went to the graveyard to determine what should trigger. At that moment, Deathgreeter was on the battlefield, so it does trigger.
Rules Advisor 
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5 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 4:13PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2011
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i can feel the Magic Rules part of my brain shift just a little bit more. man, you really have to be dilligent about the details, here!
it's so easy for me to miss the fact that though permanents leaving the battlefield will trigger Planar Void, that this doesn't mean that Planar Void has a leaves-the-battlefield trigger.
i imagine Rules people have to train their brains to see these little details, otherwise two different but similar things can be confused with each other!
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5 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 4:19PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2011
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If you're interested in why this distinction is made, it's so that if you control something like Death's Presence  and your Primordial Hydra  dies, the ability checks the power of the Hydra on the battlefield (probably greater than zero) instead of its power in the graveyard (zero).
Rules Advisor
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5 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 4:27PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2011
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actually, i didn't understand what you meant in your post by "triggering from the graveyard" and "triggering from the battlefield". (but your post did help alert me to Planar Void not being a look-back trigger, because it's not on the list of look-back triggers listed in one of the comp rules). but i'm wondering if i'm missing something, now, because i don't understand what you mean by "triggering from the graveyard" and "triggering from the battlefield".
i thought that Death's Presence sees Primordial Hydra's power as it was on the battlefield, because Death's Presence is asking about the characteristics of an object that no longer exists and so it uses Last Known Information; i thought Death's Presence can't "track" the Hydra card (ie and find it's power to be 0 because it's in the graveyard) because abilities can only "track" things like that if it matches some criteria that i can't remember [something about an ability explicitly indicating that it "tracks" an object as it changes zones].
but you're saying that Death's Presence sees the power of the Hydra as it was on the battlefield .. for a different reason? something to do with .. timing ? or "triggering from the battlefield" vs "triggering from the graveyard" or .. something?
can you clarify these ideas for me?
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5 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 4:40PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2006
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I thought that Death's Presence sees Primordial Hydra's power as it was on the battlefield, because Death's Presence is asking about the characteristics of an object that no longer exists and so it uses Last Known Information; i thought Death's Presence can't "track" the Hydra card (ie and find it's power to be 0 because it's in the graveyard) because abilities can only "track" things like that if it matches some criteria that i can't remember [something about an ability explicitly indicating that it "tracks" an object as it changes zones].
The thing is, one could think that since the ability of Death's Presence triggers when the Hydra is put in the graveyard, it looks at the Hydra's power in the graveyard. That wrong reasoning cannot be clearly refuted without rules to do so.
but you're saying that Death's Presence sees the power of the Hydra as it was on the battlefield .. for a different reason? something to do with .. timing ? or "triggering from the battlefield" vs "triggering from the graveyard" or .. something?
can you clarify these ideas for me?
The truth is that this oft-used-in-answers "triggers from the battlefield or from the graveyard" explanation isn't strictly correct and more of a mind shortcut. The rules do not use those terms. As you read in the comprehensive rules, where each of the defined categories of triggered abilities gets the information it needs to know wheter it should trigger and what it does is clearly stated. I encourage you to keep following them to the letter, you seem to have that kind of mind!
 Magic The Gathering DCI Rules Advisor Don't hesitate to post rules question in the Rules Q&A forum for me and other competent advisors to answer : http://community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/75842/134778/Rules_Q38A
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5 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 5:01PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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Deathgreeter has a leaves-the-battlefield ability. LTB abilities are special. They actually trigger before the permanent leaves the battelfield. It's this way to allow "when [this permanent] leaves the battelfield" to work. Planar Void does not have a leaves-the-battlefield ability. It has an enter-the-graveyard ability. Its ability triggers after the card is put into the graveyard. Like almost all abilities, its ability only works when he's on the battlefield, so it can't trigger for itself or another card that enters the graveyard at the same time it does.
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5 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 5:05PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2006
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Deathgreeter has a LTB ability. LTB abilities are special. They actually trigger before the permanent leaves the battelfield.
Planar Void does not have an LTB ability. Its ability triggers after the card is put into the graveyard. As such, it's not on the battlefield to trigger for itself or other creatures that die at the same time it does.
Again, not strictly correct. If both Deathgreeter and Planar Void are on the battlefield, both trigger at the exact same time after the event of a creature going from the battlefield to the graveyard. They don't behave the same because the rules say they don't, and Planar Void will not exile cards that left the battlefield at the same time as itself because the rules say it doesn't, but it's not a question of timing.
Magic The Gathering DCI Rules Advisor Don't hesitate to post rules question in the Rules Q&A forum for me and other competent advisors to answer : http://community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/75842/134778/Rules_Q38A
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5 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 5:12PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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It's because most triggers trigger based on the game state following an event. The exception is leaves the battlefield triggers which trigger on the game state prior to the event rather than after it. So when Mulldrifter  enters the field, the ability is there and sees the event happen immediately after it happens. When Goblin Arsonist  dies, the game looks prior to the event and sees the ability and triggers for the event. Planar Void has an enters the graveyard trigger, not a leaves the battlefield trigger so it triggers based on the game state following the event and it's not on the field to trigger, so it doesn't. It's for the same reason that a Clone  copying a Goblin Arsonist will trigger the dies trigger, but one copying an Emrakul  or Dread  won't trigger the shuffle into library trigger.
MtG Rules Advisor &
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5 months ago ::
Feb 03, 2013 - 5:16PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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Deathgreeter has a LTB ability. LTB abilities are special. They actually trigger before the permanent leaves the battelfield.
Planar Void does not have an LTB ability. Its ability triggers after the card is put into the graveyard. As such, it's not on the battlefield to trigger for itself or other creatures that die at the same time it does.
Again, not strictly correct. If both Deathgreeter and Planar Void are on the battlefield, both trigger at the exact same time after the event of a creature going from the battlefield to the graveyard. They don't behave the same because the rules say they don't, and Planar Void will not exile cards that left the battlefield at the same time as itself because the rules say it doesn't, but it's not a question of timing.
It's actually strictly correct. For LTB abilites, the game actually looks back in time to when the object was on the battlefield to see if it triggered. CR 603.6d.
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