Community

Feb 3, 2013 -- 5:16PM, ikegami wrote:

Feb 3, 2013 -- 5:05PM, MadMageQc wrote:

Feb 3, 2013 -- 5:01PM, ikegami wrote:

Deathgreeter has a LTB ability. LTB abilities are special. They actually trigger before the permanent leaves the battelfield.

Planar Void does not have an LTB ability. Its ability triggers after the card is put into the graveyard. As such, it's not on the battlefield to trigger for itself or other creatures that die at the same time it does.

Again, not strictly correct. If both Deathgreeter and Planar Void are on the battlefield, both trigger at the exact same time after the event of a creature going from the battlefield to the graveyard. They don't behave the same because the rules say they don't, and Planar Void will not exile cards that left the battlefield at the same time as itself because the rules say it doesn't, but it's not a question of timing.

It's actually strictly correct. For LTB abilites, the game actually looks back in time to when the object was on the battlefield to see if it triggered. CR 603.6d.

Look, I know I'm in nitpicking territory, hence the use of "strictly". But still : even if one category of trigger looks at an earlier game state than the other category to see if it should trigger, neither triggers earlier. Deathgreeter's ability cannot trigger before the event of the creature dying, it doesn't make sense. The event has to happen for it to trigger.

Feb 3, 2013 -- 5:23PM, silpheed_tandy wrote:

Feb 3, 2013 -- 5:16PM, ikegami wrote:

Feb 3, 2013 -- 5:05PM, MadMageQc wrote:

Feb 3, 2013 -- 5:01PM, ikegami wrote:

Deathgreeter has a LTB ability. LTB abilities are special. They actually trigger before the permanent leaves the battelfield.

Planar Void does not have an LTB ability. Its ability triggers after the card is put into the graveyard. As such, it's not on the battlefield to trigger for itself or other creatures that die at the same time it does.

Again, not strictly correct. If both Deathgreeter and Planar Void are on the battlefield, both trigger at the exact same time after the event of a creature going from the battlefield to the graveyard. They don't behave the same because the rules say they don't, and Planar Void will not exile cards that left the battlefield at the same time as itself because the rules say it doesn't, but it's not a question of timing.

It's actually strictly correct. For LTB abilites, the game actually looks back in time to when the object was on the battlefield to see if it triggered. CR 603.6d.

what does "a triggered ability triggers [at some point in time]" mean?
does it mean
- the time that the triggered ability is put onto the stack
or does it mean something more like
- when the triggered ability goes "whoa, i'm triggered, and now i have to wait around until just after state based actions are checked, so i can be put on the stack!", and is said to be triggered in relationship to an event happening

The latter.

Feb 3, 2013 -- 5:23PM, silpheed_tandy wrote:

(ie "Deathgreeter triggered just before the event of Planar Cleansing putting all nonland permanents on the battlefield")?

No, it triggered from the event of Planar Cleasing putting all nonland permanents in the graveyard. It's just that the rules say that it triggers for other creatures leaving the battlefield at the same time as itself, and looks back in time to check what those were, because that category of triggered abilities, which Planar Void is not part of, behaves that way.

Feb 3, 2013 -- 5:23PM, silpheed_tandy wrote:

also, can not understanding this strict semantics cause confusion; ie, is it important to know what "a triggered ability triggers [at some point in time]" strictly means?

Maybe not... I feel I'm getting a little deeper than is usally necessary here, but you're the one making me do it!

Feb 3, 2013 -- 5:29PM, ikegami wrote:

Feb 3, 2013 -- 5:23PM, silpheed_tandy wrote:

what does "a triggered ability triggers [at some point in time]" mean?

"Leaves the battlefield" is not actually a point in time. No object is ever in anything but one zone, so it's on the battlefield at one point in time (a), and it's not the next (b). When did it actually leave the battlefield? The rules says (a).

Similarly, "enters the graveyard" is not a point in time. No object is ever in anything but one zone, so it's not in the graveyard at one point in time (a), and it is the next (b). When did it actually enter the graveyard? The rules says (b).

That's a fine way to make sense of it, I won't argue on that interpretation.

If you want to delve mind-bendingly deeply into how a game of Magic proceeds, you'll eventually realize that it's not continuous: it's a series of discrete game states. This realization is especially important when analyzing the finer nuances of triggered abilities. I've found it's easiest to think about if I break triggered abilities down to three fundamental notions.

First is the Event. This is the notion that there exists a Game State A and a subsequent Game State B which differ in some specific, identifiable way. For example, Game State A could contain a particular creature permanent on the battlefield and Game State B could contain the particular creature card which was representing that permanent in the graveyard. Note that there is no mention here of how Game State A became Game State B, mostly because that's how I choose to think about events. (Also note that the notion of the Event applies across the rules globally; its not specific to triggered abilities.)

Next is the Condition. This is the specific description that each triggered ability uses to indentify the changes between State A and State B that it, in essence, "cares about".

It's important to realize that Events and Conditions (as I have defined them) are related but independent: we can associate many different conditions with the same event (for example "When Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is sacrificed/is destroyed/dies/leaves the battlefield" are four different conditions associated with the event of an Emrakul on the battlefield becoming an Emrakul in the graveyard) and many different events with the same condition (for example, an Emrakul on the battlefield becoming an Emrakul in a player's graveyard/hand/library or in exile are four different events associated with the condition "When Emrakul, the Aeons Torn leaves the battlefield)". The rules define how each condition relates to each event and whether a triggered ability uses State A or State B to determine any information it may need.

Finally is the Effect. This is whatever a triggered ability does when it resolves.

There's an extended analogy I could give here which treats Magic as a computer program which is the origin for the way I've arrived at this particular analysis of the rules, but I think this is already long enough.

Astarael7, it may have been you, in fact, who introduced me to this concept (of magic going discretely from gamestate to gametate, with events causing the changes) many months ago (back in a thread about Undiscovered Paradise untapping does not count as it becoming untapped), and i had found it VERY helpul. but i haven't actually heard that being talked about in the Comp Rules, so i'm wondering if all judges view it in this way?