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 Magic: The Gathering Rules Q&A Hand size mumbojumbo
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Flag February 2, 2013 8:54 PM PST
My searchfu has failed me! Quick question; if I have a reliquary tower and null profusion out what is my hand size, two or unlimited?
Flag February 2, 2013 8:56 PM PST
[c]Reliquary Tower[/c] ⇒

Flag February 2, 2013 8:57 PM PST
it doesn't matter in which order you play those, your handsize will be unlimited because you have no maximum handsize
Flag February 2, 2013 8:58 PM PST
Whichever entered last wins.

613.10. Some continuous effects affect game rules rather than objects. For example, effects may modify a player’s maximum hand size, or say that a creature is indestructible. These effects are applied after all other continuous effects have been applied. Continuous effects that affect the costs of spells or abilities are applied according to the order specified in rule 601.2e. All other such effects are applied in timestamp order. See also the rules for timestamp order and dependency (rules 613.6 and 613.7).

Flag February 2, 2013 9:01 PM PST
no, ikegami, "wins" in any case

either first the Tower removes the handsize and then Profusion tries to change a non-existing number or Profusion sets handsize to 2 and then the Tower removes it
Flag February 2, 2013 9:02 PM PST

Feb 2, 2013 -- 8:57PM, Enigma256 wrote:

it doesn't matter in which order you play those, your handsize will be unlimited because you have no maximum handsize

huh? Reliquary Tower doesn't say to ignore the maximum hand size. Like you said, it says you don't have one. Then Null Profusion gives you one.

Flag February 2, 2013 9:02 PM PST
In this scenario Ikegami has the correct answer.  Both effects would be applied in timestamp order, so the effect that is the most recent is the one that will apply.

Enigma would be correct if you had a card that stated you had unlimited hand size and another that stated your hand size is reduced by 7, in that case either way it's applied the hand size would still be unlimited.
Flag February 2, 2013 9:03 PM PST
you're right, I was thinking of that modifies the handsize instead of setting it
Flag February 2, 2013 9:04 PM PST
Yeah that's the part confusing me. I understand unlimited - 7 is still unlimited, but unlimited = 2 is something different.
Flag February 3, 2013 9:40 AM PST
Just remember, if you have a question about a card, always take a glance at the Gatherer page.

Feel free to use this form as much as you'd like, but sometimes you can get a faster, more definite answer by looking at the Gatherer page
Flag February 4, 2013 11:55 AM PST

Feb 2, 2013 -- 9:04PM, tehsquirrely wrote:

Yeah that's the part confusing me. I understand unlimited - 7 is still unlimited, but unlimited = 2 is something different.

If you know something about programming (or math), this might be a better way to think about it:

Normal State: Hand Size = 7 (A player's hand size is limited to 7 cards.)

What Reliquary Tower does: Hand Size = Nil (A player's hand now has no size limit.)

What Jin-Gitaxias does: Hand Size = Hand Size - 7 (A player's hand size is now seven cards fewer.)

What Recycle does: Hand Size = 2 (A player's hand size is now limited to 2 cards.)

With Reliquary Tower + Recycle, the newest one wins because they're each setting a new value for the "Hand Size variable", and each change overwrites the old one.

With Reliquary Tower + Jin-Gitaxias, the Tower wins because {} - 2 is still {}.

Flag February 4, 2013 5:08 PM PST
Nil - 7 varies by language but it crashes C and it's -7 in Perl.

Replace "Nil" with "Inf", and it actually works (Inf - 7 = Inf).