Community

 
Jump Menu:
Post Reply
Page 6 of 6  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6
Switch to Forum Live View 2/4/2013 Feature: "Missed Trigger Update"
4 months ago  ::  Feb 06, 2013 - 1:40AM #51
Lackeos
Date Joined: Feb 24, 2005
Posts: 167

At Regular REL, there are really only two "rules." You aren't allowed to miss your own triggered abilities, and your opponent isn't required to remind you about them.



You aren't allowed to?  What is the clearly defined consequence if you miss your own triggers?  Do you always get a penalty?  Suppose player A makes attacks with Pyreheart Wolf (without announcing the trigger), player B knowingly makes an illegal block, and player A absent-mindedly doesn't realize that the blocks are illegal.  Can Player B now call a judge and get player A a penalty for not realizing the blocks are illegal?  Either the answer is yes, and this is an ill-designed rule that can be royally taken advantage of, or the answer is no, and the claim that "you aren't allowed to miss your own triggered abilities" is a lie, because you're admitting that you actually can miss your triggers and not get penalized sometimes.

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 months ago  ::  Feb 06, 2013 - 6:23AM #52
Soular
Date Joined: Jul 23, 2007
Posts: 361

Feb 6, 2013 -- 1:40AM, Lackeos wrote:

At Regular REL, there are really only two "rules." You aren't allowed to miss your own triggered abilities, and your opponent isn't required to remind you about them.



You aren't allowed to?  What is the clearly defined consequence if you miss your own triggers?  Do you always get a penalty?  Suppose player A makes attacks with Pyreheart Wolf (without announcing the trigger), player B knowingly makes an illegal block, and player A absent-mindedly doesn't realize that the blocks are illegal.  Can Player B now call a judge and get player A a penalty for not realizing the blocks are illegal?  Either the answer is yes, and this is an ill-designed rule that can be royally taken advantage of, or the answer is no, and the claim that "you aren't allowed to miss your own triggered abilities" is a lie, because you're admitting that you actually can miss your triggers and not get penalized sometimes.



The point of that bolded part is that you're not allowed to miss your own triggered abilities on purpose. As you described in your example, Player A didn't realize the blocks are illegal absent-mindedly. The actual rules are more clear about it:

2.1 / Philosophy

Triggered abilities are common and invisible, so players should not be harshly penalized when forgetting about one.
Players are expected to remember their own triggered abilities; intentionally ignoring one may be Unsporting Conduct — Cheating (unless the ability would have no impact on the game as described above)




And actually, since player A didn't point out that the block should be illegal, it count as forgetting about the triggered ability, which means the block is (somewhat retroactively) legal:

2.1. Game Play Error — Missed Trigger

Definition
A triggered ability triggers, but the player controlling the ability doesn’t demonstrate awareness of the trigger’s
existence the first time that it would affect the game in a visible fashion.


The point by which the player needs to demonstrate this awareness depends on the impact that the trigger would
have on the game:
... 

  • A triggered ability that changes the rules of the game: The controller must prevent an opponent from taking any resulting illegal action.



And because the effect isn't detrimental for player A, If a judge is called, player A won't receive any penalty and the game will continue without the effect of that triggererd ability.

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 months ago  ::  Feb 06, 2013 - 5:55PM #53
Lackeos
Date Joined: Feb 24, 2005
Posts: 167
So you actually are allowed to miss your own triggers sometimes.
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 months ago  ::  Feb 07, 2013 - 5:36AM #54
Soular
Date Joined: Jul 23, 2007
Posts: 361

Feb 6, 2013 -- 5:55PM, Lackeos wrote:

So you actually are allowed to miss your own triggers sometimes.



Yes, but only if it has no impact on the game. Note that even effects like those of Pyreheart Wolf are considered to have impact on them game. The example given in the rules is that of a trigger causing you to sacrifice a creature when you have none.

In contrast, ignoring effects that are beneficial to you on purpose is technically cheating. And I'm not talking just about cards like Transcendence where it is more obvious (and actually detrimental).

Lets take the Pyreheart Wolf situation again for example. Lets say the player controlling the Pyreheart Wolf is in a situation where he wants to attack with it and have his creatures blocked to destroy one of his opponent's creatures with combat tricks. Such a player may attempt to ignore the wolf's ability in hope to lure his opponent to block. From what I can tell this is considered cheating, though I'm not sure how an opponent or a judge can identify it.

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 months ago  ::  Feb 07, 2013 - 5:03PM #55
Lackeos
Date Joined: Feb 24, 2005
Posts: 167
But it seems like the message is...
You can NEVER ignore your own triggers.  Actually, sometimes you can, and we'll just let you.  No penalty, not even a caution, the game state won't be fixed, nothing.  You can sometimes just forget your own trigger and we'll allow it.  BUT, you can NEVER just forget your own trigger, because we won't allow it.  ... What?

The other message...
We said you can never ignore your own triggers.  But here's how it really works.  Sometimes we'll let you, and sometimes we won't.  It all comes down to whether you accidentally forgot about the trigger, or whether you knew you were ignoring the trigger.  We have a team of psychics on hand to telepathically determine which it was.  You might not get a penalty if you are good at fooling the psychic.  The penalty isn't determined solely by whether you benefit or not, it's also determined partially by whether you knew you were benefiting.  So remember, ALWAYS act like you forgot about the trigger, NEVER reveal that you skipped the trigger intentionally, because it's crucial that you fool the psychic mind-reading test.
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 months ago  ::  Feb 07, 2013 - 7:10PM #56
TobyornotToby
Date Joined: Mar 7, 2006
Posts: 2,287

Feb 7, 2013 -- 5:03PM, Lackeos wrote:

But it seems like the message is...
You can NEVER ignore your own triggers.  Actually, sometimes you can, and we'll just let you.  No penalty, not even a caution, the game state won't be fixed, nothing.  You can sometimes just forget your own trigger and we'll allow it.  BUT, you can NEVER just forget your own trigger, because we won't allow it.  ... What?

The other message...
We said you can never ignore your own triggers.  But here's how it really works.  Sometimes we'll let you, and sometimes we won't.  It all comes down to whether you accidentally forgot about the trigger, or whether you knew you were ignoring the trigger.  We have a team of psychics on hand to telepathically determine which it was.  You might not get a penalty if you are good at fooling the psychic.  The penalty isn't determined solely by whether you benefit or not, it's also determined partially by whether you knew you were benefiting.  So remember, ALWAYS act like you forgot about the trigger, NEVER reveal that you skipped the trigger intentionally, because it's crucial that you fool the psychic mind-reading test.




If you can convince a judge you 'accidentally' forgot your exalted trigger so you deal 2 damage, not 3 to your opponent... good for you!
If you try to convince a judge you 'accidentally' forgot your Dark Confidant trigger while at 2 life, whereas you haven't forgotten it the 5 turns prior... good luck...

I don't see the problem. Actually I think you focus too much on the theoretical aspect, trying to find loopholes, rather than the practical aspect, whether people actually want to use those loopholes.

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 months ago  ::  Feb 07, 2013 - 8:05PM #57
rexman07
Date Joined: Oct 12, 2007
Posts: 68

Feb 7, 2013 -- 7:10PM, TobyornotToby wrote:

Feb 7, 2013 -- 5:03PM, Lackeos wrote:

But it seems like the message is...
You can NEVER ignore your own triggers.  Actually, sometimes you can, and we'll just let you.  No penalty, not even a caution, the game state won't be fixed, nothing.  You can sometimes just forget your own trigger and we'll allow it.  BUT, you can NEVER just forget your own trigger, because we won't allow it.  ... What?

The other message...
We said you can never ignore your own triggers.  But here's how it really works.  Sometimes we'll let you, and sometimes we won't.  It all comes down to whether you accidentally forgot about the trigger, or whether you knew you were ignoring the trigger.  We have a team of psychics on hand to telepathically determine which it was.  You might not get a penalty if you are good at fooling the psychic.  The penalty isn't determined solely by whether you benefit or not, it's also determined partially by whether you knew you were benefiting.  So remember, ALWAYS act like you forgot about the trigger, NEVER reveal that you skipped the trigger intentionally, because it's crucial that you fool the psychic mind-reading test.




If you can convince a judge you 'accidentally' forgot your exalted trigger so you deal 2 damage, not 3 to your opponent... good for you!
If you try to convince a judge you 'accidentally' forgot your Dark Confidant trigger while at 2 life, whereas you haven't forgotten it the 5 turns prior... good luck...

I don't see the problem. Actually I think you focus too much on the theoretical aspect, trying to find loopholes, rather than the practical aspect, whether people actually want to use those loopholes.




I agree. There's no perfect solution, but these proposed rules seem completely intuitive and reasonable to me.

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 6 of 6  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6
Jump Menu:
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing