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4 months ago ::
Jan 28, 2013 - 9:58AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jun 22, 2011
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Hello, If I control Master Biomancer  and I cast Corpsejack Menace  , will with how many +1/+1 counters will be placed on the Menace as it enters the battlefield ? with one or two +1/+1 counter s on it ?Thanks in advance.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 28, 2013 - 10:04AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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2 Corpsejack Menace doesn't apply to itself because it doesn't specifically mention itself if it said "on Corpsejack Menace or a creature you control" it would enter with 4
proud member of the 2011 community team
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4 months ago ::
Jan 28, 2013 - 10:04AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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A similar question is awaiting an [O] response on the judge forumI suspect the answer will be two and that Corpsejack Menace's ability will not apply to itself.
MtG Rules Advisor &
Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJDJ VortexDCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320 Wit found in Rules Q&ARPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?" My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out
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4 months ago ::
Jan 28, 2013 - 10:09AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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there is kinda sorta precedence to this a persisting Melira, Sylvok Outcast  will get a -1/-1 counter, while a persisting Melira's Keeper  will not
proud member of the 2011 community team
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4 months ago ::
Jan 28, 2013 - 10:12AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Mar 10, 2010
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Similar to the way Blood Moon  does not affect how a Hallowed Fountain  would enter the battlefield (you may still pay 2 life or it enters tapped) - I would imagine that since Corpsejack Menace isn't on the battlefield to apply its own replacement effect, Master Biomancer will only add two +1/+1 counters.
614.4. Replacement effects must exist before the appropriate event occurs—they can’t “go back in time” and change something that’s already happened. Spells or abilities that generate these effects are often cast or activated in response to whatever would produce the event and thus resolve before that event would occur.
Sean Stackhouse
Level Two Judge (Yay!)
Maine
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4 months ago ::
Jan 28, 2013 - 11:28AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2006
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a persisting Melira, Sylvok Outcast will get a -1/-1 counter, while a persisting Melira's Keeper will not
OK, but according to which rule?
«Dystocracy : A system of government in which corrupt leadership colludes with dishonest bankers and greedy elites in order to ensure that productive members of society –people who actually do useful work- bear the greatest share of taxes while gaining the least benefit possible.»
Sounds familiar?
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4 months ago ::
Jan 28, 2013 - 11:42AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent’s characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.
proud member of the 2011 community team
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4 months ago ::
Jan 28, 2013 - 11:46AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2006
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I belive this one is required for completedness: 112.6h An object’s ability that states counters can’t be placed on that object functions as that object is entering the battlefield in addition to functioning while that object is on the battlefield.
...because neither Meliras fit the criteria described in 614.1c-d.
«Dystocracy : A system of government in which corrupt leadership colludes with dishonest bankers and greedy elites in order to ensure that productive members of society –people who actually do useful work- bear the greatest share of taxes while gaining the least benefit possible.»
Sounds familiar?
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4 months ago ::
Jan 28, 2013 - 11:49AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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the Meliras modify the persist replacement effect, so it applies
but you're right, your rule is better
proud member of the 2011 community team
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4 months ago ::
Jan 28, 2013 - 12:19PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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the Meliras modify the persist replacement effect, so it applies
I believe it was determined that persist isn't a replacement effect because it doesn't match any of the wordings of 614.1
MtG Rules Advisor &
Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJDJ VortexDCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320 Wit found in Rules Q&ARPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?" My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out
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