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4 months ago ::
Jan 25, 2013 - 9:04AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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121.5. If an effect says to “move” a counter, it means to take that counter from the object it’s currently on and put it onto a second object. If the first and second objects are the same object, nothing happens. If the first object has no counters, nothing happens; the second object doesn’t get a counter put on it. If the second object (or any possible second objects) is no longer in the correct zone when the effect would move the counter, nothing happens; a counter isn’t removed from the first object.
It has been previously ruled that Doubling Season  will double the counters when counters are moved from one permanent to another, however, 121.5 specifically uses the verb put when it really should use place to be unambiguously consistent with 121.6 and Doubling Season 's Oracle text
MtG Rules Advisor &
Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJDJ VortexDCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320 Wit found in Rules Q&ARPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?" My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out
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4 months ago ::
Jan 25, 2013 - 11:19AM
#2
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- Celestial Teapots are broken!
Date Joined:
Feb 24, 2007
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Effects that care about counters being placed (triggers, replacement effects, and "can't" effects) do say "place". However, everywhere that a counter is actually put on an object, "put" is used. The rule is more correct as is.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 25, 2013 - 11:55AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2011
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I'm sorry, but what's the meaningful difference between "put" and "place" in this context? How can you put a counter on something without placing it, or vice-versa?
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4 months ago ::
Jan 25, 2013 - 12:27PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2011
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Effects that care about counters being placed (triggers, replacement effects, and "can't" effects) do say "place". However, everywhere that a counter is actually put on an object, "put" is used. The rule is more correct as is.
Are you saying that doubling season should not double moved counters?
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4 months ago ::
Jan 25, 2013 - 12:31PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Mar 30, 2011
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No, he's saying that to "put" a counter on something is to "place" it. Cards that care about such placement already use "place" (e.g., Doubling Season ), so there's no problem. 121.6. If a spell or ability refers to a counter being “placed” on a permanent, it means putting a counter on that permanent while it’s on the battlefield, or that permanent entering the battlefield with a counter on it as the result of an effect (see rule 614.1c).
Level 2 DCI Judge
Orange, CA
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4 months ago ::
Jan 25, 2013 - 1:22PM
#6
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Antisemantics! The two words are interchangeable.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 28, 2013 - 12:43PM
#7
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Date Joined:
May 16, 2002
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"Move" is a subset of "put," and "put" is a subset of "place." That is, moving a counter onto an object is one way of putting a counter on that object, and putting a counter on an object is one way of placing a counter on that object.
Del Laugel
Senior editor, Magic TCG
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