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4 months ago ::
Jan 24, 2013 - 9:50PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2010
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community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... Life and Limb  Conspiracy  Ah here we go to the wonderful world of dependancies again. Here's my issue, I linked an old thread (about a month old, so I figured I'd make a new one). In that thread it states that life and limb is dependant on conspiracy (conspiracy naming saprolings). However I think they are dependant on each other and heres why: If you do as stated and apply conspiracy first then it would apply to all the creatures on the battlefield, but not the lands since at that time they are not creatures. Then life and limb applies and turns all the forests and creatures into creature lands. However in order for conspiracy to affect the forests, life and limb must be applied first. Even though the forests are already saprolings, the conspiracy could still apply. Now lets do this the other way around, if life and limb applied first all the forest and saprolings would become land creatures. After that the conspiracies effect could apply to all the creatures on the battlefield and all the forests since they are now creatures. Of course the creatures that were not originally saprolings are now saprolings, but since life of the loam was already applied they would not be forests. To change things up, instead of conspiracy naming saproling the player names human instead.
DCI Level 2 Judge
Rockford, Illinois
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4 months ago ::
Jan 24, 2013 - 10:31PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jan 19, 2003
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What is on the battlefield in your scenario? Because in the thread you link, there were no land cards on the battlefield. I'll run through a few cases, but feel free to clarify what all you would like to be on the battlefield. ---- Case 1: the battlefield contains life and limb, conspiracy, forest (and nothing else) ---- Hidden for brevity
Show
- If life and limb applies first, it applies to one object: forest.
- If life and limb applies second, it applies to one object: forest
Since the set of affect objects doesn't change (and none of the other conditions that could make an effect dependent are relevant), life and limb is independant of conspiracy.
- If conspiracy applies first, it applies to nothing.
- If conspiracy applies second, it applies to one object: forest
Since the set of affected objects changes, conspiracy is dependant on life and limb.
Only conspiracy is dependant, so we apply life and limb first, then conspiracy.
---- Case 2: the battlefield contains life and limb, conspiracy, grizzly bears (and nothing else) ---- Spoiler:
Show
- If life and limb applies first, it applies to nothing
- If life and limb applies second, it applies to one object: grizzly bears
Since the set of affected objects changes, life and limb is dependant on conspiracy.
- If conspiracy applies first, it applies to one object: grizzly bears
- If conspiracy applies second, it applies to one object: grizzly bears
Since the set of affect objects doesn't change, conspiracy is independant of life and limb.
Only life and limb is dependant, so we apply conspiracy first, then life and limb
---- Case 3: the battlefield contains life and limb, conspiracy, forest, and grizzly bears ---- Spoiler:
Show
- If life and limb applies first, it applies to one object: forest
- If life and limb applies second, it applies to two objects: forest and grizzly bears
Since the set of affected objects changes, life and limb is dependant on conspiracy.
- If conspiracy applies first, it applies to one object: grizzly bears.
- If conspiracy applies second, it applies to two objects: grizlzy bears and forest
Since the set of affected objects changes, conspiracy is dependant on life and limb.
We have a dependency loop, so the effects are applied in timestamp order.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 24, 2013 - 10:37PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2010
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Ok that what I was thinking would happen. Based on how with a forest and creature both effects seemed to be dependant on each other I figured that created a dependancy loop, I just wanted to make sure. Thanks.
DCI Level 2 Judge
Rockford, Illinois
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4 months ago ::
Jan 25, 2013 - 6:46AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2006
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This leaves me puzzled.
Shall we conclude that those cards should always be applied according to timestamp?
Or does this mean that dependency is... dependant upon what other cards are on the Field? (weird! )
«Dystocracy : A system of government in which corrupt leadership colludes with dishonest bankers and greedy elites in order to ensure that productive members of society –people who actually do useful work- bear the greatest share of taxes while gaining the least benefit possible.»
Sounds familiar?
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4 months ago ::
Jan 25, 2013 - 7:01AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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Or does this mean that dependency is... dependant upon what other cards are on the Field? (weird! )
this one
the effect has to apply to something tangible before it can actually be dependent
I wouldn't say that the dependency rules explain dependency very well though
(there's definitely room for improvement)
MtG Rules Advisor &
Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJDJ VortexDCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320 Wit found in Rules Q&ARPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?" My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out
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4 months ago ::
Jan 25, 2013 - 7:07AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2006
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the effect has to apply to something tangible before it can actually be dependent
This really hurts my logic! But then, this is Magic...
I feel that dependency between two cards should be a fixed state
and should not be affected by cards... that don't affect them!
How strange.
«Dystocracy : A system of government in which corrupt leadership colludes with dishonest bankers and greedy elites in order to ensure that productive members of society –people who actually do useful work- bear the greatest share of taxes while gaining the least benefit possible.»
Sounds familiar?
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4 months ago ::
Jan 25, 2013 - 7:19AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2012
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I think it makes plenty of sense. For example, Life and Limb probably doesn't need to be dependent on Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth  all the time -- just when Magical Hack  is messing with things.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 25, 2013 - 7:21AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2006
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But the M-Hack does affect these cards, which makes this logical. On the other hand, neither Forest nor Grizzly Bears affect Conspiracy nor L&L; still, their very presence on the Field changes the dependency. That's harder to grok!
«Dystocracy : A system of government in which corrupt leadership colludes with dishonest bankers and greedy elites in order to ensure that productive members of society –people who actually do useful work- bear the greatest share of taxes while gaining the least benefit possible.»
Sounds familiar?
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4 months ago ::
Jan 25, 2013 - 7:26AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2006
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-Look! I have L&L, Conspiracy and one Forest. Obviously, we must apply L&L's effect first!
-Oh yeah? We'll, I'll cast the mighty Grizzly Bears card and change all of that!
This can't be right...
«Dystocracy : A system of government in which corrupt leadership colludes with dishonest bankers and greedy elites in order to ensure that productive members of society –people who actually do useful work- bear the greatest share of taxes while gaining the least benefit possible.»
Sounds familiar?
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4 months ago ::
Jan 25, 2013 - 7:35AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2012
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Life and Limb is an odd case, since it turns two unrelated sets of objects into each other. From a strict reading of the rules, the above interpretation is derived. It's possible that the rules team will find this undesirable, similar to how they've ruled that Caged Sun  always has a mana ability, even when it doesn't fit the definition. Without an official ruling to contradict the CR, we must come to the conclusion that cyphern showed.
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