So some of the issues with Cipher actually pushed me into making an account here.
Each Cipher card basically acts like an enchantment, which of course allows it to be encoded to hexproof creatures (I first thought they should have changed the word to include "target" for cipher but realized it still would work with Invisible Stalker).
I feel like these overcosted cards would be worth it more if they just required a creature to attack, not necessarily connect. That makes the keyword act more like subterfuge that the Dimir would be known for. This puts pressure on an opponent to destroy the encoded creatures quickly, either through removal or blocking, and insures that Cipher cards would hit twice.
So some of the issues with Cipher actually pushed me into making an account here.Each Cipher card basically acts like an enchantment, which of course allows it to be encoded to hexproof creatures (I first thought they should have changed the word to
Each Cipher card basically acts like an enchantment, which of course allows it to be encoded to hexproof creatures (I first thought they should have changed the word to include "target" for cipher but realized it still would work with Invisible Stalker).
Not only that. You wouldn't be able to encode on the tokens made by Call of the Nightwing and Stolen Identity , and if the original didn't have a target, you could suddenly counter the original spell by removing the target, which seems pretty bad for a mechanic that is in the end optional.
While cipher would still work only on attacking with the evasive guys, it would make the mechanic infinitely more overpowered, and so drawing a card would cost like and wouldn't be common. Keep in mind that these card advantage-y mechanics are often a lot better in Limited so they have to balance them a bit. But I think Hands of Binding and Stolen Identity are actually good cards.
Not only that. You wouldn't be able to encode on the tokens made by Call of the Nightwing and Stolen Identity , and if the original didn't have a target, you could suddenly counte
Each Cipher card basically acts like an enchantment, which of course allows it to be encoded to hexproof creatures (I first thought they should have changed the word to include "target" for cipher but realized it still would work with Invisible Stalker).
Not only that. You wouldn't be able to encode on the tokens made by Call of the Nightwing and Stolen Identity , and if the original didn't have a target, you could suddenly counter the original spell by removing the target, which seems pretty bad for a mechanic that is in the end optional.
While cipher would still work only on attacking with the evasive guys, it would make the mechanic infinitely more overpowered, and so drawing a card would cost like and wouldn't be common. Keep in mind that these card advantage-y mechanics are often a lot better in Limited so they have to balance them a bit. But I think Hands of Binding and Stolen Identity are actually good cards.
You would still be able to encode with tokens made from Call of the Nightwing and Stolen Identity wouldn't you? The current wording is "Then you may exile this spell card encoded on a creature you control." The change would have been "target creature you control" which tokens count for. Unless the word "target" doesn't operate the same in rules text on cards.
I disagree that a draw card would have to cost so much. The new one Last Thoughts is basically Curiousity but costs 3 more. WotC really should have looked at the equivalent enchantments that do the same thing before designing these cards. I'd be okay with the 4cc cost of Last Thoughts if it required an attack to only be declared.
Not only that. You wouldn't be able to encode on the tokens made by Call of the Nightwing and Stolen Identity , and if the original didn't have a target, you could suddenly counte
You would still be able to encode with tokens made from Call of the Nightwing and Stolen Identity wouldn't you? The current wording is "Then you may exile this spell card encoded on a creature you control." The change would have been "target creature you control" which tokens count for. Unless the word "target" doesn't operate the same in rules text on cards.
No, you wouldn't. Requiring cipher cards to target a creature would mean that the target would have to be on the battlefield at the time of casting the spell. The tokens generated from Stolen Identity and Call of the Nightwing aren't on the battlefield when you cast those spells, so you wouldn't be able to encode them. This is the exact reason why cipher spells don't target. Requiring a target would also mean that you would have to have at least one targetable creature (that is, a creature without shroud, or protection from blue or black, both of which cipher ignores because it doesn't target) on the battlefield when you cast the spell. If the target becomes illegal before the spell resolves--it dies or gets bounced somehow--then your spell gets countered and you don't get to benifit at all. You need to be able to play your cipher spells with or without a creature, and the spells shouldn't be able to get countered so easily.
I disagree that a draw card would have to cost so much. The new one Last Thoughts is basically Curiousity but costs 3 more. WotC really should have looked at the equivalent enchantments that do the same thing before designing these cards. I'd be okay with the 4cc cost of Last Thoughts if it required an attack to only be declared.
You need to stop thinking of cipher in terms of enchantments. Yes, four mana is expensive to draw one card, especially in blue. However, the simple fact that you can encode this card onto a flyer or an unblockable and be able to repeatedly draw a card is why the spell costs so much. What if a card read, "Draw a card. [This card] deals 1 damage to an opponent of your choice. Draw a card." Is that spell overcosted at four mana? (For the record, that's an actual question; I'm no good at costing cards.) I can tell you right now that a card that reads, "Put a token of target artifact or creature onto the battlefield. [This card] deals 1 damage to an opponent of your choice. Put a token of target artifact or creature onto the battlefield (you may choose a new target)." priced at is a card I would play, and that's pretty much what cipher is doing.
Oh yeah, and having the encoded spell trigger solely on attacking is grossly overpowered.
No, you wouldn't. Requiring cipher cards to target a creature would mean that the target would have to be on the battlefield at the time of casting the spell. The tokens generated from Stolen Identity and Cal
I understand that recast triggers are creatures dealing combat damage to a player. conceptually, I prefer unopposed attacking creature deals no damage (to do something else)
my boat is empty
I understand that recast triggers are creatures dealing combat damage to a player.conceptually, I prefer unopposed attacking creature deals no damage (to do something else)my boat is empty
I understand that recast triggers are creatures dealing combat damage to a player. conceptually, I prefer unopposed attacking creature deals no damage (to do something else)
my boat is empty
"Whenever this deals combat damage to a player." and "Whenever this attacks and isn't blocked, prevent all combat damage it would deal this turn. If you do," don't play that differently (they would cost about the same), except one gives you a choice you don't want to make because you already struggled to get through the blockers. They (now) never use the second. It's also wordier (and cipher's reminder text is giant).
"Whenever this deals combat damage to a player." and "Whenever this attacks and isn't blocked, prevent all combat damage it would deal this turn. If you do," don't play that differently (they would cost about the same), except one gives you a choice
Keeping Cipher playable, fun, and unbroken, while having it be basically the same effect, wouldn't be easy.
Right now it's too overcosted to really matter in constructed, which is somewhat sad. If you can use Lazav with something like Paranoid Delusions or Whispering Madness to turn him into some giant fatty or evasive creature and then encode the spell on him (turning him into a hexproof, encoded Griselbrand or Drogskol Reaver or something equally terrifying) then you win.
Otherwise you'll get it off once, maybe twice before your creature is bounced and the card is stuck in exile.
Keeping Cipher playable, fun, and unbroken, while having it be basically the same effect, wouldn't be easy.Right now it's too overcosted to really matter in constructed, which is somewhat sad. If you can use Lazav
Its actually very easy to do: "Cipher is overcosted."Fixing cipher requires we -1 to all mana costs. [/quote] Hi guys, can I come out to play now? :D Yep, that's right. Totally calling Grixis control.
Its actually very easy to do: "Cipher is overcosted."Fixing cipher requires we -1 to all mana costs. [/quote] Hi guys, can I come out to play now? :D Yep, that's right. Totally calling Grixis control. [/quote]ooooh..
Because there's nothing control likes more than playing cheap creatures and attacking with them.
Its actually very easy to do: "Cipher is overcosted."Fixing cipher requires we -1 to all mana costs. [/quote] Hi guys, can I come out to play now? :D Yep, that's right. Totally calling Grixis control. [/quote]Because
The main problem is that cipher is costed for how broken it can be in constructed, while everyone is just looking at it in the limited format at this point.
The main problem is that cipher is costed for how broken it can be in constructed, while everyone is just looking at it in the limited format at this point.
Cipher is at least 2 castings of a spell if played right and it makes your opponent use removal on weaker creatures To prevent that, instant speed would be preferred though. I'm waiting for a cipher spell for index, 1uu (or just uu) look at the top 5 and rearrange.
Cipher is at least 2 castings of a spell if played right and it makes your opponent use removal on weaker creatures To prevent that, instant speed would be preferred though. I'm waiting for a cipher spell for index, 1uu (or just uu) look at the to
I think cypher is reasonably costed since most of the time you'll get 2 activations of that spell when you have a creature with evasion(either flying or unblockable). Even if it was a non evasive creature, cypher is in the colors of control and point removal so 80% of the time you can get 2 uses out of the spell the turn you play it.
I think cypher is reasonably costed since most of the time you'll get 2 activations of that spell when you have a creature with evasion(either flying or unblockable). Even if it was a non evasive creature, cypher is in the colors of control and point
Cipher is a bit pricy, but when using it in comparison to an enchantment you don't add the damage from the creature's attack on immediately anyways. It still has to attack. You wouldn't add the damage from a regular enchantment on there just because you're probably gonna get at least one attack through in any deck you would use it with.
Anyways, if you wanna make the straight enchantment: aura comparison you have to throw something like shroud+indestructible (even that doesn't quite cover it) because you CANNOT remove the effect from the creature w/o killing/exiling it (as far as I know anyways). So keep these things in mind.
However, auras have gotten ridiculously low costs recently, so I don't know what they're thinking making some of these more expensive ones.
Cipher is a bit pricy, but when using it in comparison to an enchantment you don't add the damage from the creature's attack on immediately anyways. It still has to attack. You wouldn't add the damage from a regular enchantment on there just because
None of you have ever even played with Cipher before. How can you already say it's overcosted?
Because, compared to enchantments of similar price, all cipher cards come with a +3 or +4 manacost on top of the enchantment.
Enchantment hate is sideboard-material -- at best.
Curiosity -- Allows you to play it on a Memnite on turn 1. Rancor -- Allows you to play it on a Ornithopter on turn 1. Mark of the Vampire -- A 4 life swing on each hit -- and this actually helps the creature survive in combat and defensively. Dark Favor -- 3 life swing on each hit, playable turn 2, and helps when blocked or when blocking. Holy Mantle -- a 2 life swing per hit -- but makes the creature unblockable and infinitely useful for defense. Curse of Bloodletting -- Double damage, no questions asked.
Because, compared to enchantments of similar price, all cipher cards come with a +3 or +4 manacost on top of the enchantment.Enchantment hate is sideboard-material -- at best. Curiosity -- Allows you to play it on a
Cipher cards still get you the effect once even if your creature is killed in response. Auras with ETB-abilities don't give you anything if your opponent has instant-speed removal.
Compare the cipher cards with Auras that have an ETB-effect in addition to granting a lasting benefit (that's similar in size as the ETB): Knightly Valor , Soaring Hope . And remember that the cipher cards can't be answered completely with a kill spell like those cards.
Cipher cards still get you the effect once even if your creature is killed in response. Auras with ETB-abilities don't give you anything if your opponent has instant-speed removal.Compare the cipher cards with Auras that have an ETB-effect in additio
Point is: They are, on average, just as bad as unplayable auras, for their manacost alone.
Admittedly, there are few cards in standard that lets you draw three cards, but then again, som cards already let you draw on attack. Look back at the previous Ravnica block to see the change in overall power-level.
Hey. I'm for a lowering of power-level -- but that only makes the price for modern even steeper, as the growth in the pool of cards playable there stagnates
Point is: They are, on average, just as bad as unplayable auras, for their manacost alone.Admittedly, there are few cards in standard that lets you draw three cards, but then again, som cards already let you draw on attack.Look back at the previous R
It may seem overcosted, but unless you've got evasive guys *cough*Invisible Stalker *cough*, I would say "when this creature attacks, cast ~" is OP by a factor of 128.
It may seem overcosted, but unless you've got evasive guys *cough* Invisible Stalker *cough*, I would say "when this creature attacks, cast ~" is OP by a factor of 128.
It may seem overcosted, but unless you've got evasive guys *cough*Invisible Stalker *cough*, I would say "when this creature attacks, cast ~" is OP by a factor of 128.
My original idea was to fix the mechanic of Cipher to somehow keep it from being attachable to Invisible Stalker but there really was no way around it without putting obvious hate into the Cipher mechanic like (Then encode onto a creature you control without Hexproof..." but that gets clunky and too obvious. Plus it limits Lazav too. So Idk.
However, I'm glad people are picking up on the aura comparisons. Another one I was thinking off that someone brought to my attention was Shadow Slice is basically Dark Favor .
Now, I get there are some differences. Some cards like Guttersnipe are gonna benefit from the free casting of Cipher spells. But unless you are playing a near perfect control deck to be able to keep one out, play these high costed Cipher cards, and keep them coming, I wouldn't count too much on benefiting from multiple casts.
The only thing I can see the higher costing cards doing are being bombs. I honestly don't think WotC intends for Cipher cards to be played more than twice, which comes across as just a rewording of Rebound. The lower costing Cipher cards though will have multiple activations, I'm sure.
This is probably the basic template for Dimir decks wanting to use Cipher cards
My original idea was to fix the mechanic of Cipher to somehow keep it from being attachable to Invisible Stalker but there really was no way around it without putting obvious hate into the Cipher mechanic like (The
Mechanically, Cipher is fine. The problem is that other than Hands of Binding , Paranoid Delusion and Stolen Identity all Cipher spells are massivley overcost. In fact, Stolen Identity is overcost (Compare: Cackling Counterpart ), it's jsut a potent enough effect that you can overlook that.
All those overcost cipher spells would be fixed if they were instants, instead of sorceries. Yes, even Mental Vapors . This is because the surcharge of for Cipher seems to expect that you will always get one hit (Three is the cost to copy ) in. If they were instants, you could cast them after blockers and get a free hit in, like Ninjustu. Alternativley, they could cost or D over their baseline instead of
Mechanically, Cipher is fine. The problem is that other than Hands of Binding , Paranoid Delusion and Stolen Identity all Cipher spells are ma
Mechanically, Cipher is fine. The problem is that other than Hands of Binding , Paranoid Delusion and Stolen Identity all Cipher spells are massivley overcost. In fact, Stolen Identity is overcost (Compare: Cackling Counterpart ), it's jsut a potent enough effect that you can overlook that.
All those overcost cipher spells would be fixed if they were instants, instead of sorceries. Yes, even Mental Vapors . This is because the surcharge of for Cipher seems to expect that you will always get one hit (Three is the cost to copy ) in. If they were instants, you could cast them after blockers and get a free hit in, like Ninjustu. Alternativley, they could cost or D over their baseline instead of
I actually don't think Stolen Identity is overcosted, at elast when compared to Rite of Replication . Obviously, I'm just talking in general cost terms here, not strictly standard.
Assuming a single source of mana is added to each turn, you can get either 1 copy on turn 4 or 5 copies on turn 9 with the Rite and that's all at once. With Stolen Identity starting on turn six, and assuming the spell works like it should, meaning connection every turn, you get 2 copies on turn 6, 3 copies on turn 7, 4 on turn 8, and 5 on turn 9. So in the end, it matches [c]Rite of Replication in terms of turns vs. number of tokens, although it's slower if you need a copy immediately. However, Stolen Identity has added flexibility in that the 5 copies by turn 9 don't have to be all the same creature. It turns the card into a blocker, a Legendary killer (although an expensive one), and aggro creature, and whatever is on the field.
I'm actually perfectly okay with this card and I'll use it both in standard and edh.
I actually don't think Stolen Identity is overcosted, at elast when compared to Rite of Replication . Obviously, I'm just talking in general cost terms here, not strictly standard
Mechanically, Cipher is fine. The problem is that other than Hands of Binding , Paranoid Delusion and Stolen Identity all Cipher spells are massivley overcost. In fact, Stolen Identity is overcost (Compare: Cackling Counterpart ), it's jsut a potent enough effect that you can overlook that.
All those overcost cipher spells would be fixed if they were instants, instead of sorceries. Yes, even Mental Vapors . This is because the surcharge of for Cipher seems to expect that you will always get one hit (Three is the cost to copy ) in. If they were instants, you could cast them after blockers and get a free hit in, like Ninjustu. Alternativley, they could cost or D over their baseline instead of
I think cypher is reasonably costed since most of the time you'll get 2 activations of that spell when you have a creature with evasion(either flying or unblockable). Even if it was a non evasive creature, cypher is in the colors of control and point removal so 80% of the time you can get 2 uses out of the spell the turn you play it.
Since they already require a creature in play do to anything, requiring additional support makes the ability even worse.
Players don't want an ability that's good if you have this and this or that. They want an ability that's just good.
Since they already require a creature in play do to anything, requiring additional support makes the ability even worse.Players don't want an ability that's good if you have this and this or that. They want an ability that's just good.
I think cypher is reasonably costed since most of the time you'll get 2 activations of that spell when you have a creature with evasion(either flying or unblockable). Even if it was a non evasive creature, cypher is in the colors of control and point removal so 80% of the time you can get 2 uses out of the spell the turn you play it.
Since they already require a creature in play do to anything, requiring additional support makes the ability even worse.
Players don't want an ability that's good if you have this and this or that. They want an ability that's just good.
You do realize that while aura's require a creature in play to do anything, Cipher cards do not, right? Notably, Stolen Identity , which is a clone that will repeat the effect whenever it connects. God dammit! I promised I'd stay out of this stupid thread.
Since they already require a creature in play do to anything, requiring additional support makes the ability even worse.Players don't want an ability that's good if you have this and this or that. They want an ability that's just good. [/quote]You do
I think cypher is reasonably costed since most of the time you'll get 2 activations of that spell when you have a creature with evasion(either flying or unblockable). Even if it was a non evasive creature, cypher is in the colors of control and point removal so 80% of the time you can get 2 uses out of the spell the turn you play it.
Since they already require a creature in play do to anything, requiring additional support makes the ability even worse.
Players don't want an ability that's good if you have this and this or that. They want an ability that's just good.
You do realize that while aura's require a creature in play to do anything, Cipher cards do not, right? Notably, Stolen Identity , which is a clone that will repeat the effect whenever it connects. God dammit! I promised I'd stay out of this stupid thread.
It's doesn't need a creature in play for you to cast the card. But for cypher do do anything, it does. Otherwise, it's just an overcosted spell.
Since they already require a creature in play do to anything, requiring additional support makes the ability even worse.Players don't want an ability that's good if you have this and this or that. They want an ability that's just good. [/quote]You do
You all do realise that cipher is in Blue Black right? With the amount of good evasive and hexproof creatures available they would dominate the game if cipher were more aggresively costed. And people are already complaining about hexproof dominating with creatures like stalker and geist of saint traft. Man you guys complain about everything.
You all do realise that cipher is in Blue Black right? With the amount of good evasive and hexproof creatures available they would dominate the game if cipher were more aggresively costed. And people are already complaining about hexproof dominating
my shadow deck and my fairy deck handle creature enchantments just fine without hex proof
ofcourse, me opponent would rather just bolt me in the head
my fix would be to make all instants and sorceries into cypher
Cypher Shade creature weird shade When this enters play, you may take a sorcery or instant of mana toll X from your hand and attach it to this. When this damages a player, cast a copy of the attached spell if applicable. (X values in the copied spell are set to 0) If Cypher Shade leaves play, discard the attached spell. 1/4
my shadow deck and my fairy deck handle creature enchantments just fine without hex proofofcourse, me opponent would rather just bolt me in the headmy fix would be to make all instants and sorceries into cypher Cypher Shade creature weird shadeWhen
Everyone seems to think that Wizards' goal in each set is to churn out non-stop aggressively costed, flashy and powerful spells.
This is not the case.
Sometimes WotC makes "strictly worse" cards. This is especially so when they are testing a new mechanic, such as cipher. Rather than risk completely unbalancing the current game state, they would rather take cautious steps and measure how the mechanic plays in all formats. Making the comparison to more aggresively costed cards that confer a similar result is a bit 'apples-and-oranges.' Your expectations do not match their goals.
Plus, come on -- Invisible Stalker is still in standard. Any card ciphered onto him is going to be worth its casting cost.
Everyone seems to think that Wizards' goal in each set is to churn out non-stop aggressively costed, flashy and powerful spells.This is not the case.Sometimes WotC makes "strictly worse" cards. This is especially so when they are testing a new mecha
Everyone seems to think that Wizards' goal in each set is to churn out non-stop aggressively costed, flashy and powerful spells.
This is not the case.
Sometimes WotC makes "strictly worse" cards. This is especially so when they are testing a new mechanic, such as cipher. Rather than risk completely unbalancing the current game state, they would rather take cautious steps and measure how the mechanic plays in all formats. Making the comparison to more aggresively costed cards that confer a similar result is a bit 'apples-and-oranges.' Your expectations do not match their goals.
Plus, come on -- Invisible Stalker is still in standard. Any card ciphered onto him is going to be worth its casting cost.
the problem is everywhere else BUT on stalkers cipher will be useless.
the problem is everywhere else BUT on stalkers cipher will be useless.
Besides, all my decks run Mutilate or a wrath variant.
All of them. NO exceptions.
It's a failsafe. Oh. I just got multilate. Attack all out on this turn, then see what he does. If he causes havoc or spends spells protecting or killing creatures, the more power to me.
Besides, all my decks run Mutilate or a wrath variant.All of them.NO exceptions.It's a failsafe.Oh. I just got multilate.Attack all out on this turn, then see what he does.If he causes havoc or spends spells protecting or killing creatures, the more
staying power is more important for cypher on base creatures than evasion
hex proof, regeneration, indestructabe, toughness, protection from ~, absorb
evasion can be executed by secondary support
flight, unblockable, tap, detain, death touch, protection from ~
staying power is more important for cypher on base creatures than evasionhex proof, regeneration, indestructabe, toughness, protection from ~, absorbevasion can be executed by secondary support flight, unblockable, tap, detain, death touch, protectio
1. Cipher as an ability is fine. Not every card is going to be OMG OP OP OP. Hands of Binding is very likely to see competitive play.
2. We haven't actually seen the current meta. 5-6 mana spells might be fringe playable. Even if the chance is slim, the timmy in me really like the one sided pox and is hoping. The spike in me says rubbish. But we'll see.
1. Cipher as an ability is fine. Not every card is going to be OMG OP OP OP. Hands of Binding is very likely to see competitive play.2. We haven't actually seen the current meta. 5-6 mana spells might be fringe pla
hands of binding turns blockers aside too bad there's no unsummon cypher
discards would mean by the time most ciphers are cast, The opponent may have no cards to eliminate your ciphered creatures
ciphor spells hands of binding turns blockers asidetoo bad there's no unsummon cypherdiscards would mean by the time most ciphers are cast, The opponent may have no cards to eliminate your ciphered creatures
You all do realise that cipher is in Blue Black right? With the amount of good evasive and hexproof creatures available they would dominate the game if cipher were more aggresively costed. And people are already complaining about hexproof dominating with creatures like stalker and geist of saint traft. Man you guys complain about everything.
How many is that? Playable hexproof/evasive blue or black creatures in standard?
How many is that? Playable hexproof/evasive blue or black creatures in standard?
You all do realise that cipher is in Blue Black right? With the amount of good evasive and hexproof creatures available they would dominate the game if cipher were more aggresively costed. And people are already complaining about hexproof dominating with creatures like stalker and geist of saint traft. Man you guys complain about everything.
How many is that? Playable hexproof/evasive blue or black creatures in standard?
On the top of my mind there's 2 cheap unblockables in innistrad, one that is hexproof, and a third that costs 3 mana; 1 blue unblockable and 1 black swampwalk for 3/4 mana (lol contaminated ground?), an enchantment that makes you unblockable for 4, GoST is hexproof... uh I think that's it.
How many is that? Playable hexproof/evasive blue or black creatures in standard?[/quote]On the top of my mind there's 2 cheap unblockables in innistrad, one that is hexproof, and a third that costs 3 mana; 1 blue unblockable and 1 black swampwalk for
You all do realise that cipher is in Blue Black right? With the amount of good evasive and hexproof creatures available they would dominate the game if cipher were more aggresively costed. And people are already complaining about hexproof dominating with creatures like stalker and geist of saint traft. Man you guys complain about everything.
How many is that? Playable hexproof/evasive blue or black creatures in standard?
How many is that? Playable hexproof/evasive blue or black creatures in standard?[/quote]Just from the Dimir guild, you have...Hexproof Horror of the Dim Lazav, Dimir Mastermind Evas
If you use the Dimir Keyrune to be encoded (after turning it into the unblockable creature and all that), will it be able to be used again after your turn, or will the next time it becomes a creature make it a different creature? or does that matter? is it an encoded artifact when it isn't a creature, and how does that work out compared to it not triggering Warstorm Surge ? I don't mean to imply that it won't work for more than a two-shot of the spell, but rather I am curious about the peculiarities of the rules here.
All that said, I like cipher, and while it may be hard to get it to work as everyone seems to have wished it would have, it could be pretty useful and even be made effective with effort and ingenuity.
Good gaming everyone!
If you use the Dimir Keyrune to be encoded (after turning it into the unblockable creature and all that), will it be able to be used again after your turn, or will the next time it becomes a creature make it a diff
If you use the Dimir Keyrune to be encoded (after turning it into the unblockable creature and all that), will it be able to be used again after your turn, or will the next time it becomes a creature make it a different creature? or does that matter? is it an encoded artifact when it isn't a creature, and how does that work out compared to it not triggering Warstorm Surge ? I don't mean to imply that it won't work for more than a two-shot of the spell, but rather I am curious about the peculiarities of the rules here.
All that said, I like cipher, and while it may be hard to get it to work as everyone seems to have wished it would have, it could be pretty useful and even be made effective with effort and ingenuity.
The card will stay encoded when the Keyrune stops being a creature. If it becomes reanimated it is not entering the battlefield and the Surge won't trigger.
asked the judges community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...[/quote]The card will stay encoded when the Keyrune stops being a creature. If it becomes reanimated it is not entering the battlefield and the S
If you use the Dimir Keyrune to be encoded (after turning it into the unblockable creature and all that), will it be able to be used again after your turn, or will the next time it becomes a creature make it a different creature? or does that matter? is it an encoded artifact when it isn't a creature, and how does that work out compared to it not triggering Warstorm Surge ? I don't mean to imply that it won't work for more than a two-shot of the spell, but rather I am curious about the peculiarities of the rules here.
All that said, I like cipher, and while it may be hard to get it to work as everyone seems to have wished it would have, it could be pretty useful and even be made effective with effort and ingenuity.
The card will stay encoded when the Keyrune stops being a creature. If it becomes reanimated it is not entering the battlefield and the Surge won't trigger.
I'm not a judge. It's covered in the FAQ.
702.97c The card with cipher remains encoded on the chosen creature as long as the card with cipher remains exiled and the creature remains on the battlefield. The card remains encoded on that object even if it changes controller or stops being a creature, as long as it remains on the battlefield.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...[/quote]The card will stay encoded when the Keyrune stops being a creature. If it becomes reanimated it is not entering the battlefield and the Surge won't trigger. [/quote][/quote]I'm not a judge. It's c
Well, after the pre-release, I've determined Cipher doesn't need fixing. It is in fact, incredibly useful. The 6 cmc Undercity Plague had my opponents sweating every time I played it. If you can drop it on a flier or unblockable, great- you'll get double duty the turn it plays, and next turn it can be extorted (if you're playing Orzhov.) However, one game, I dropped it on a Dutiful Thrull when I also had a Syndicate Enforcer with Riot Gear on the table. My opponent is running low on life- about 8 left, and has only one creature to block with. Does he block the 4/4, or the 1/1 regen- which, if it gets through, will still do two damage and force him to discard and sac a permanent? And since it has regen, it'll just keep doing it every turn.
Well, after the pre-release, I've determined Cipher doesn't need fixing. It is in fact, incredibly useful. The 6 cmc Undercity Plague had my opponents sweating every time I played it. If you can drop it on a flier
Well, after the pre-release, I've determined Cipher doesn't need fixing. It is in fact, incredibly useful. The 6 cmc Undercity Plague had my opponents sweating every time I played it. If you can drop it on a flier or unblockable, great- you'll get double duty the turn it plays, and next turn it can be extorted (if you're playing Orzhov.) However, one game, I dropped it on a Dutiful Thrull when I also had a Syndicate Enforcer with Riot Gear on the table. My opponent is running low on life- about 8 left, and has only one creature to block with. Does he block the 4/4, or the 1/1 regen- which, if it gets through, will still do two damage and force him to discard and sac a permanent? And since it has regen, it'll just keep doing it every turn.
We'll know more with constructed. Limited is in no way an indication of constructed, and I think that's more of what this discussion is about.
We'll know more with constructed. Limited is in no way an indication of constructed, and I think that's more of what this discussion is about.
for Cipher seems to expect that you will always get one hit ( Three is the cost to copy 
or D over their baseline instead of 
