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4 months ago ::
Jan 22, 2013 - 3:50PM
#11
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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if you are a control deck you need to be able to control planeswalkers
proud member of the 2011 community team
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4 months ago ::
Jan 23, 2013 - 12:46AM
#12
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if you are a control deck you need to be able to control planeswalkers
I know. And I know I need to find a way around it. My point, which has been systematically ignored, is that no other similarly-costed planeswalker has a hard 3-4 turn clock. Not Jace Architect, not Tamiyo, not either of the Garruks, not Lilliana. The only one who has such a fast clock is Nicol Bolas, and people don't play him not because he isn't strong, but because he's so hard to cast.
And to the person who said that milling needed 15 cards per turn to be effective, tell that to the Bant control decks winning tournaments with Nephalia Drownyard  . 
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4 months ago ::
Jan 23, 2013 - 12:52AM
#13
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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run Elixir of Immortality  and laugh at the silly mill mage or any of the legendary eldrazi outside of Standard
proud member of the 2011 community team
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4 months ago ::
Jan 23, 2013 - 12:54AM
#14
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I run a pretty creature-light control deck.
Without Oblivion Ring  , Negate  , Dreadbore  , Devil's Play  , Bramblecrush  , or, well, something to deal with a planeswalker?
I'm serioius, do you really have nothing to deal with it?
I do. I run 3 or 4 Detention Sphere  s and 2-3 Negate s, not to mention Elixir of Immortality . If I don't have an answer when Jace hits the board, though, there is so little time to find one. Yeah I can fill my side-board with Pithing Needle  s and O-rings, but that weakens you against other kinds of matchups as well....
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4 months ago ::
Jan 23, 2013 - 4:54AM
#15
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Funny, I was just watching Andrew Cuneo play Jon Finkel in Round 4 of Atlanta GP. Finkel played a Jace Memory Adept on turn 5 or 6, and despite having 18 life Cuneo just instantly conceded....
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4 months ago ::
Jan 23, 2013 - 8:00AM
#16
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if you are a control deck you need to be able to control planeswalkers
I know. And I know I need to find a way around it. My point, which has been systematically ignored, is that no other similarly-costed planeswalker has a hard 3-4 turn clock. Not Jace Architect, not Tamiyo, not either of the Garruks, not Lilliana. The only one who has such a fast clock is Nicol Bolas, and people don't play him not because he isn't strong, but because he's so hard to cast.
And to the person who said that milling needed 15 cards per turn to be effective, tell that to the Bant control decks winning tournaments with Nephalia Drownyard .
Bant Control is not a mill deck. It is a control deck, that in the control mirror, it's usually quicker to try to mill the other deck out, rather than fight through endless Thragtusk  s while Sphinx's Revelation  s get fired off. It's just not effective to try to lay on the beat down. But they will still try before things get out of hand. Drownyard works because often the deck playing against it is trying to draw lots of cards, and otherwise making it difficult for creatures to kill them thanks to lifegain.
In this case, control-mirrors often go to time, which makes every hit of 3 cards count because both decks are built for the long hall, and it's very hard to add cards to your library. If you can neutralize the other guy's Elixir and keep yours, you could be sitting in a good spot when the Judge calls time and you go into turns.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 23, 2013 - 8:24AM
#17
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Funny, I was just watching Andrew Cuneo play Jon Finkel in Round 4 of Atlanta GP. Finkel played a Jace Memory Adept on turn 5 or 6, and despite having 18 life Cuneo just instantly conceded....
This is very anecdotal, but one time in a small local FNM Standard Tourny, fairly soon after M13 was released, I was playing against a guy with Jaces in his deck. He kept using Jace's "+1 I draw, you mill" ability in order to dig for something that wasn't land, which he kept drawing. I attacked and had the option of hitting his Jace to dead or hitting him down to 2 in this one turn. I took the player damage option and put him at 2 life, letting him keep the Jace, hoping to draw a burn spell or get another attack in for the win next turn. I lost that game.
I'm not saying that Jace, Memory Adept  is "like totally broken" or anything, but it is a really good card for its mana cost (and hey, it's mythic, so it probably should be), and like a lot of planeswalkers, can be brutal if left unchecked for more than a turn or two.
I would also like to point out that the age-old argument which goes "it's not broken if theres a card in the format that hoses it" doesn't impress me. A lot of cards that actually WERE banned had answers to them in their respective formats. It's the hallmark of banned cards that they continue to be brutal DESPITE that being the case, because of how good they really are when NOT dealt with. If a card is so broken that you're mulliganing down to 4 cards just to draw that hoser for it, there might be something to the idea of banning it.
That said, I wouldn't ban Jace, and for the exact reason some people have stated, it isn't warping the format and becoming the only card everyone plays. Also, there aren't just one or two cards that deal with it, there are like half a dozen (plus you can just attack with creatures). There's one in almost every color, and there's a cheap colorless one. So you not only have a silver bullet, you have your choice of a full magazine full of them, and almost all of those silver bullets have uses outside of just dealing with Jace. O-ring is so generically usefull that a white control deck should probably be playing 4 even when not playing against Jace, because it will usually have a target of some kind. Pithing Needle is a pretty ubiquitous sideboard card in almost every format that it's legal in.
Your control deck seems like it loses to a Jace that resolves. This just means its a bad matchup for your deck. Almost all decks have a bad matchup somewhere in the metagame, even top tier tournament decks. Your Jace player probably sideboards one or more Jaces out against more agressive creature beatdown decks, because the jace costs 5 mana, mills the guy one time, then gets attacked and killed. Its all a matter of perspective.
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4 months ago ::
Jan 24, 2013 - 9:20AM
#18
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Date Joined:
Oct 12, 2010
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if you are a control deck you need to be able to control planeswalkers
The first time I built a control deck, the first thing I learned was, you need to be able to answer everything. And that was before planeswalkers.
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
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Autocard is your friend.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] = Lightning Bolt 
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