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5 months ago ::
Jan 19, 2013 - 2:56PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jul 22, 2008
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Ok, so I have an annoying player at my venue that insists he knows the rules, but I'm am sure I know this one. I had a Wild Beastmaster  out that had 5 +1/+1 counters on it from an Increasing Savagery  . I declared the start of my combat, both of us passed priority. I declared my Beastmaster and a few other creatures as attackers. The Beastmaster trigger goes on the stack. He Ultimate Price  d it, then said since it died before the trigger resolved, my creatures would only get +2/+2 and not +6/+6. I argued that when the trigger resolved, it would use LKI and my creatures would get the +6/+6 since the Beast master left as a 6/6 and not a 2/2. He refuses to agree, and while I still wont he game, I would like to put him in his place with some back up from those that definitely know the rules better than him.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 19, 2013 - 2:58PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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it will use LKI and your creatures would get +6/+6 he'd need to use something like Dismember  (not enough in this case, but you get my point) to actually change the value of X
proud member of the 2011 community team
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5 months ago ::
Jan 19, 2013 - 2:59PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2005
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Ok, so I have an annoying player at my venue that insists he knows the rules, but I'm am sure I know this one. I had a Wild Beastmaster out that had 5 +1/+1 counters on it from an Increasing Savagery .
I declared the start of my combat, both of us passed priority.
I declared my Beastmaster and a few other creatures as attackers.
The Beastmaster trigger goes on the stack.
He Ultimate Price d it, then said since it died before the trigger resolved, my creatures would only get +2/+2 and not +6/+6.
I argued that when the trigger resolved, it would use LKI and my creatures would get the +6/+6 since the Beast master left as a 6/6 and not a 2/2.
He refuses to agree, and while I still wont he game, I would like to put him in his place with some back up from those that definitely know the rules better than him.
You are correct. From the RtR FAQ:
* The value of X is determined when the triggered ability resolves. If Wild Beastmaster is no longer on the battlefield at that time, use its last known power to determine the value of X. This could be bad for you if Wild Beastmaster’s power was negative. For example, if Wild Beastmaster’s power is -4, each other creature you control will get -4/-4 until end of turn.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 19, 2013 - 2:59PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Apr 18, 2012
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You are correct. This is even mentioned on the gatherer rullings, just click on the card name -> Wild Beastmaster
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5 months ago ::
Jan 19, 2013 - 3:36PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. There are seven exceptions to this rule:
The creature the ability referenced no longer exists. How can a creature that doesn't exist be 2/2?
112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, "Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to target creature or player") rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it’s expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.
When it ceased to exist, it was 6/6.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 20, 2013 - 7:01AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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608.2g If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied. If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself or a target that’s become illegal, the effect uses the current information of that object if it’s in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it’s no longer in that zone, or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object’s last known information. See rule 112.7a. If an ability states that an object does something, it’s the object as it exists—or as it most recently existed—that does it, not the ability.
MtG Rules Advisor &
Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJDJ VortexDCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320 Wit found in Rules Q&ARPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?" My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out
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5 months ago ::
Jan 20, 2013 - 9:12AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Nov 10, 2012
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I realize the rules work this way, but it doesn't seem to 'make sense' (I know, it isn't logic, it is magic; but...) It seems weird that if I 'hurt' your creature with last gasp  then the other creatures only get +3/+3 But if I destroy your creature with murder  ; then they get the full +6/+6. Can anyone explain the reason/logic as to why the rules work this way? (Did I understand it correctly, that if I used 2 Last Gasps on the creature, it would die as a 0/0, thus the other creatures would get +0/+0??)
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5 months ago ::
Jan 20, 2013 - 9:20AM
#8
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Can anyone explain the reason/logic as to why the rules work this way?
The Last Known Information rule exists because, in many cases, spells or abilities couldn't function properly without some information about a creature that's been destroyed, or sacrificed, or in some other way no longer exists.
It has some odd outcomes sometimes, but it's a necessary rule, and trying to fix up all those odd interactions would involve far more complicated, and hard to understand, rules.
(Did I understand it correctly, that if I used 2 Last Gasps on the creature, it would die as a 0/0, thus the other creatures would get +0/+0??)
That is correct.
If you need a flavour justification: When you murder them, they die at their peak, and are an inspiring Martyr.
When you use two last gasps, they just kind of get all weak and shrivel up. Not so inspiring.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 20, 2013 - 9:47AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Nov 10, 2012
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It just seems to lead to a lot of 'odd interactions', but that my perspective may be skewed from hanging out here so much.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 20, 2013 - 9:48AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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those "odd interactions" are the exception the rest is logical enough to not warrant any questions for this forum 
proud member of the 2011 community team
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