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Switch to Forum Live View Lets talk about counterspells
5 months ago  ::  Jan 24, 2013 - 10:08AM #21
Rush_Clasic
Date Joined: Mar 10, 2003
Posts: 12,550

Jan 17, 2013 -- 9:07PM, Lakanna wrote:

Can similar flavor be brought to Green and Red? Both are even MORE direct. I think that red is a good candidate for Redirect style antimagic, changing the course of the spell itself, as well as Reverberate , making opponents' spells into double-edged swords. Green? No idea, since green is far more about the creatures and less about spells. Possibly it could share some of white's ability to put creatures with permission abilities on the board, but nothing jumps out at me as a uniquely green way to deal with spells.


There's an argument for green getting "creature protection" counterspells. Usually, it just gets cards like Ranger's Guile which do the job in a much more green fashion, but something like Avoid Fate doesn't seem too far of a stretch to me.

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5 months ago  ::  Jan 25, 2013 - 8:43PM #22
HairlessThoctar
Date Joined: Dec 27, 2009
Posts: 7,636
Something of interest:

Mark Rosewater: Hard counters need two colors of mana in their mana cost one of which needs to be blue.


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5 months ago  ::  Jan 27, 2013 - 12:28PM #23
bay_falconer
Date Joined: Oct 12, 2010
Posts: 9,710

Jan 25, 2013 -- 8:43PM, HairlessThoctar wrote:

Something of interest:

Mark Rosewater: Hard counters need two colors of mana in their mana cost one of which needs to be blue.





It's probably a typo. He means "two colored mana". I don't see Cancel out of the core set.

Jun 27, 2012 -- 12:04AM, GM_Champion wrote:

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5 months ago  ::  Jan 27, 2013 - 7:29PM #24
HairlessThoctar
Date Joined: Dec 27, 2009
Posts: 7,636

Jan 27, 2013 -- 12:28PM, bay_falconer wrote:

Jan 25, 2013 -- 8:43PM, HairlessThoctar wrote:

Something of interest:

Mark Rosewater: Hard counters need two colors of mana in their mana cost one of which needs to be blue.





It's probably a typo. He means "two colored mana". I don't see Cancel out of the core set.




The question was specifically about Psychic Strike , so yeah.

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5 months ago  ::  Jan 27, 2013 - 7:52PM #25
Wynzerman
Date Joined: Oct 23, 2010
Posts: 3,609

Jan 27, 2013 -- 12:28PM, bay_falconer wrote:

Jan 25, 2013 -- 8:43PM, HairlessThoctar wrote:

Something of interest:

Mark Rosewater: Hard counters need two colors of mana in their mana cost one of which needs to be blue.





It's probably a typo. He means "two colored mana". I don't see Cancel out of the core set.




There's some amount of implied reading there. I think what he meant is that hardcounters (counters that counter anything and without "pay x" conditions or alternative effects) have a stucture of
CC + whatever cost is approrpriate given what the card actually does.
Except that in the current design/dev machine, they frontload new hardcounters with extra generic mana and chaff effects or chaff effects + narrow targeting.



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5 months ago  ::  Jan 27, 2013 - 8:13PM #26
HairlessThoctar
Date Joined: Dec 27, 2009
Posts: 7,636
What's basically being said is that R&D is now willing to put cards that read "Counter Target Spell" at costs that have two of any color mana one of which has to be blue, whereas before they needed a minimum of two blue.

Not " counter target spell unless " or " counter target BLAH spell ", but " counter target spell ".


Edit: Confirmed by Maro.

So, for a long time R&D has had a rule. If a card is a hard counter (defined as a counterspell that could counter any spell without any restriction) it has to haveBlue ManaBlue Manain the mana cost. The idea behind this rule is that counterspelling is very blue, so we don't want decks without enough commitment to blue playing hard counters.

During development, Erik Lauer came to me. The development team was interested in making oid()" keyvalue="Psychic_Strike" keyname="name">Psychic StrikewithoutBlue ManaBlue Mana. He argued that it would still have two colored mana so it wouldn't be easy to splash outside of a dedicated blue-black deck. We talked about it and decided that we would try a hard counter with two colored mana that weren'tBlue ManaBlue Mana. So, depending on how this goes, it will influence theBlue ManaBlue Mana rule in the future. (Odds are it's going to help us start relaxing it a little—the new provisional rule is hard counters require at least two colored mana, one of which must be blue.)


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4 months ago  ::  Feb 16, 2013 - 4:47PM #27
billiondegree
Date Joined: Jul 29, 2005
Posts: 535

Jan 24, 2013 -- 10:08AM, Rush_Clasic wrote:

Jan 17, 2013 -- 9:07PM, Lakanna wrote:

Can similar flavor be brought to Green and Red? Both are even MORE direct. I think that red is a good candidate for Redirect style antimagic, changing the course of the spell itself, as well as Reverberate , making opponents' spells into double-edged swords. Green? No idea, since green is far more about the creatures and less about spells. Possibly it could share some of white's ability to put creatures with permission abilities on the board, but nothing jumps out at me as a uniquely green way to deal with spells.


There's an argument for green getting "creature protection" counterspells. Usually, it just gets cards like Ranger's Guile which do the job in a much more green fashion, but something like Avoid Fate doesn't seem too far of a stretch to me.


For green I would give it something that protects both creatures and the user from harm.

So, to take a bit of white's share, give it something along these lines:

Gladecover 1G
Instant
Target permanent or player gains hexproof until end of turn.

Simple card that can be used to save a dude from a [Lightning Bolt]Kill[/c] spell or to save you from dying to the same thing.

Now, green has also been about taking out noncreature permanents, what about noncreature spells as well? Could it get an overcosted Negate?

Yeva's Decree 3G
Instant
Counter target noncreature spell.

Or, more closely to beast within.

Fungal Infection 1G
Instant
Counter target instant or sorcery spell. Its controller puts X 1/1 saproling tokens onto the battlefield, where X is that spell's converted mana cost.

Seems like it would allow green to deal with poweful spell cards in "green" way, that normally they would not be able to do.

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4 months ago  ::  Feb 16, 2013 - 5:19PM #28
PurpleFive
Date Joined: Jul 13, 2012
Posts: 205
I do agree with your Gladecover, billiondegree. Yeva's Decree doesn't feel green at all, though, and Fungal Infection would need to put an X/X creature rather than X 1/1 creatures, since green doesn't have meens of getting rid of swarms of creatures, plus it still doesn't feel green (it could be , though, if it countered any spell).

I feel that the only two colors that can get actual counterspells are blue and black (soft counters playing on life and hard counters against creatures). The others need other ways of thinking. Red indeed would get spell duplication and spell deviation. Green could do with hexproof, and white doesn't require counterspells.
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4 months ago  ::  Feb 16, 2013 - 5:21PM #29
HairlessThoctar
Date Joined: Dec 27, 2009
Posts: 7,636
But black doesn't need counterspells.
It has kill spells for creatures, and discard and extraction effects for everything else. 
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4 months ago  ::  Feb 16, 2013 - 5:28PM #30
PurpleFive
Date Joined: Jul 13, 2012
Posts: 205
Yet I could see spells like this:

Counter target spell with converted mana cost . Its controller loses X life.

or


Counter target spell unless its controller pays  and X life.

It plays well with discard effects that let you chose what to remove, and allows the color to fight against enchantments, artifacts and planeswalkers, which it usually is excessively weak against.
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