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5 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 2:10PM
#21
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2009
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That wouldnt be a problem, since the OP was worried about missing a trigger during the beginning of combat step by accidentally skipping right to the declare attackers step (something which the part I highlighted shows isnt the case).
~ Tim
If he uses the conventional shortcut to enter combat and the NAP then passes, the game immediately progresses to the Declare Attackers step and he would miss those triggers.
Yes, you are right - I missed the "until the opponent has priority" bit - thats what puts it past the point where the ability should have triggered. If the opponent accepts the shortcut, are they both guilty of a missed trigger/failure to maintain or something?
~ Tim
 Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D Sig
Show
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
That makes no sense to me.
If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed?
~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise  in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch  . YAY COLOR IDENTITY 
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 2:23PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Nov 27, 2006
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modify the shortcut to "entering combat, any responses?"
any responses would still be in your main phase in that case, otherwise you move to the "begin of combat" step and put the trigger on the stack
No. Any such or even remotely similar phrase should be interpreted as invoking the standard shortcut; the only way around this is to very, very, very, absolutely a gazillion percent clear that you are deviating from the standard shortcut.
Games of Magic should not be decided by mincing words; even more so in environments where players don't necessarily share a native language. If we allowed certain phrasings to invoke the shortcut and certain other phrasings to bypass it, even though they may sound similar to the untrained ear, the shortcut would become meaningless, because everybody would just learn the correct phrasing to bypass it. By interpreting basically anything as invoking the shortcut, we protect the opponent from shenanigans like "Combat?", "Cryptic Command, tap all your guys", "ok, once that has resolved, I'll cast this non-flash creature with haste and still smack you in the face".
As to how this would work with the Angel, I'd just go, "Combat, Angel triggers."
That's the perfect solution.
DCI Lvl 2 Judge
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5 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 4:48PM
#23
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That wouldnt be a problem, since the OP was worried about missing a trigger during the beginning of combat step by accidentally skipping right to the declare attackers step (something which the part I highlighted shows isnt the case).
~ Tim
If he uses the conventional shortcut to enter combat and the NAP then passes, the game immediately progresses to the Declare Attackers step and he would miss those triggers.
No he wouldn't. A trigger is only considered missed if you take an action passed when it would have resolved. Provided you announce your choice for the skirmisher before declaring attackers you're fine.
A trigger is considered missed once the controller of the trigger has taken an action after the point at which a trigger should have resolved or, in the case of a trigger controlled by the non-active player, after that player has taken an action that indicates they have actively passed priority. Players may not cause triggered abilities to be missed by taking game actions or otherwise prematurely advancing the game. For example, if a player draws a card during his or her draw step without allowing the controller of a triggered ability that would trigger during that turn’s upkeep to resolve it, place that trigger on the stack at this point and issue no penalty.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:03PM
#24
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As to how this would work with the Angel, I'd just go, "Combat, Angel triggers."
That's the perfect solution.
The problem I see with this method is that you don't give your opponent the chance to accept the shortcut before you annoucne the trigger, thus giving them a chance to remove the Angelic Skirmisher  before it triggers if they refure the shortcut. They may have forgotten about the trigger and are holding a removal spell they otherwise intended to use as a combat trick.
I just want to be clear though that my intention is not to rules lawyer anyone out of a legitimate chance to respond to something, but to avoid being rules lawyered out of my own trigger without giving information away. So I guess my further question as a result of the responses here is:
Does 'Beginning of Combat?' constitute a shortcut to the declare attackers phase, or is this reasonably explicit enough that if the opponent passes I will announce my trigger and if they respond we are still in my main phase? Still being in my main phase is not so important for this scenario, but may as well be covered.
Or has it been decided that the trigger has not been missed as long as I declare it before taking any other actions regardless of the shortcut?
Cheers
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5 months ago ::
Jan 15, 2013 - 8:05AM
#25
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Date Joined:
Jul 22, 2011
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I'm also interested in seeing the answer to LoveMonkey's question. An easy way to make the Main Phase part relevant is to say Player A controls Angelic Skirmisher and Basandra, Battle Seraph  (so that A's opponent can't respond to the trigger with something like a Stifle  ). Let's also assume for the sake of argument that A's opponent Player N is kinda dumb and will forget about A's triggers until A announces them. Let's also assume Competitive REL so that all this trigger announcement stuff actually matters. It's Player A's main phase. Scenario 1: A: "Go to combat?" N: (thinking A is passing priority until just before Declare Attackers step) "Okay." A: "Angelic Skirmisher triggers." N: "You missed it, we're at Declare Attackers." How does a judge resolve this? My guess is "the trigger is on the stack and N has priority in the Beginning of Combat step" but I'm not a judge. Scenario 2: A: "Go to combat?" N: (thinking A is passing priority until just before Declare Attackers step) "Okay." A: "Angelic Skirmisher triggers." N: "In that case, in your main phase I Doom Blade  your Angelic Skirmisher." A: "You can't, you accepted the shortcut and you have priority in the Beginning of Combat step which means you can't cast Doom Blade." How does a judge resolve this? My guess is that the answer is same as in Scenario 1. Scenario 3: A: "Go to beginning of combat?" (A genuinely feels this means the same as "I want to go to the Beginning of Combat step".) N: "Okay." (N genuinely thought A was using the conventional shortcut meaning "I offer to pass priority until you have priority in the BoC step.") A: "Angelic Skirmisher triggers." N: "But we're at Declare Attackers and you missed the trigger." A: "I clearly said I want to go to the Beginning of Combat step, not Declare Attackers." Oh dear, I seem to have spilled priority everywhere. I guess the ultimate question is this. Player A wants to exit their Main Phase without reminding N of the trigger, but without missing it and in such a way that N has clearly missed their opportunity to respond in the Main Phase. Is this possible within the rules? I feel like Player A saying "I pass in my Main Phase" or "End Main Phase?" might be the best compromise, but the unusual wording itself may serve as a reminder to N so it's not ideal. On the other hand, the "Go to Beginning of Combat?" shortcut might be juuuust weasely enough to get Player A a cheating DQ from a judge if they think he/she was trying to trick N into thinking A meant the conventional "Go to combat" shortcut. I know the IPG and MTR aren't iron-clad in the sense that the CR is but still, I think it's an interesting question. Sorry I didn't mean to write a novel there.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 15, 2013 - 9:22AM
#26
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Date Joined:
Sep 16, 2008
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No he wouldn't. A trigger is only considered missed if you take an action passed when it would have resolved. Provided you announce your choice for the skirmisher before declaring attackers you're fine.
Fair point, but that brings up another question:
If the AP uses the conventional shortcut to enter combat, the NAP indicates a pass, then the AP announces his BoC triggers, would the NAP receive priority in the BoC step again? There seems to be an ambiguous game state at work here.
Do you essentially rewind the NAP's pass and let him respond to the previously unmentioned triggers or is his pass considered to have occured with the stealth triggers already on the stack, and the acknowledgement after said pass was simply acknowledging their resolution?
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5 months ago ::
Jan 15, 2013 - 1:00PM
#27
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No he wouldn't. A trigger is only considered missed if you take an action passed when it would have resolved. Provided you announce your choice for the skirmisher before declaring attackers you're fine.
Fair point, but that brings up another question:
If the AP uses the conventional shortcut to enter combat, the NAP indicates a pass, then the AP announces his BoC triggers, would the NAP receive priority in the BoC step again? There seems to be an ambiguous game state at work here.
Do you essentially rewind the NAP's pass and let him respond to the previously unmentioned triggers or is his pass considered to have occured with the stealth triggers already on the stack, and the acknowledgement after said pass was simply acknowledging their resolution?
I not sure but I think that you only have to announce the resolution of the triggered ability not the ability being put on the stack (although you will presumable have to announce any targets or modes chosen, if applicable). So in this case you would just resolve the ability then both players would get at least one more priority pass before the BoC step ends.
You're right that this can lead to an ambiguous game state if a player forgets a trigger. However the ambiguity will be resolved in short order when that player fails to resolve it. Having to announce a trigger separately from resolving it is too far removed from normal play to be practical and will result in a lot of warnings for missed triggers when a player puts a counter on his Stromkirk Noble without first announcing the trigger.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 16, 2013 - 5:07AM
#28
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I get that part. What I don't get is what makes "Choose one — x, y or z" modal whereas "Choose x, y or z" isn't. They mean the same thing. The only explanation I can come up with is that the rules say "Choose one —" is modal and don't say it for "Choose x, y or z", but then we return to the point of the rules being flawed.
Yep, just like the rules are flawed because "Choose a creature, that creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn" and "Target creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn" mean different things.
It's the same thing as the difference in modality, but you're so used to "target" being a special case that you don't notice it any more.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 16, 2013 - 6:29AM
#29
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I guess the ultimate question is this. Player A wants to exit their Main Phase without reminding N of the trigger, but without missing it and in such a way that N has clearly missed their opportunity to respond in the Main Phase. Is this possible within the rules?
This is exactly what I want to know.
Cheers
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5 months ago ::
Jan 16, 2013 - 6:57AM
#30
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2012
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There's no way to miss the angel's trigger by using the normal "Go to combat?" shortcut. This shortcut takes the game to the beginning of combat, with Player B having priority and the angel's ability on the stack. A trigger can't be considered missed until Player A takes an action after it should have resolved (such as declaring attackers). The following exchange would be acceptable: Player A: Combat? Player B: Sure. (It is at this point that B has lost his chance.) Player A: Any responses to Angel's trigger?* Player B: No. Player A: Okay, my creatures have first strike. Here's what B should have done: Player A: Combat? Player B: I want to Doom Blade your Skirmisher just before we leave the main phase. *Player A might use this tactic in case he doesn't want B to know what ability he'll pick before the trigger resolves. Normally, it's fine to just handle the resolution of a trigger in order to demonstrate awareness, but in this case, there is no way to determine whether B has passed priority.
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