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Switch to Forum Live View The Mystery of Value
5 months ago  ::  Jan 10, 2013 - 10:18PM #1
quadibloc
Date Joined: Aug 20, 2008
Posts: 4,182
(Yes, this is the start of another tired old thread about the Reserved List. You may stop reading now if you wish.)

I see that it has been an exciting year in Magic: the Gathering.

A while back, despite the previous existence of Judge foils, when the Reserved List foil card Pyrexian Negator appeared in Duel Decks: Phyrexia vs. The Coalition, there was quite an uproar. People had not understood "premium" in the Reprint Policy to include anything tournament-legal, even if it was foil.

Now, I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised that Commander's Arsenal did not cause any similar hue and cry. After all, the Reserved List cards that were "reprinted" in it, Karn, Silver Golem and Sliver Queen (Hmm, maybe they should have called it Commander's Typographical Error...) were not tournament-legal. They were oversized cards. And there have been lots of oversized reprints; for example, an oversized Black Lotus was included with SCRYE #15.

And yet I an going to say that Commander's Arsenal was transgressive and unprecedented in one way. The oversized cards in it weren't tournament-legal, but for the first time, they were intended for use in a kind of Magic play, even if it was a casual variant.

And, of course, an even bigger event happened - in MTGO. When the last Masters' Edition came out without the Power Nine - but with it appearing that their inclusion had been seriously considered - there was considerable dismay.  Wizards responded that the P9 would eventually come to MTGO, in a form worthy of their stature.

One component of how such a statement would be interpreted was, of course, that they would be released at a high price - the cynical among us thinking a very high price. That didn't happen; instead, the Holiday Cube Draft was Wizards' Christmas gift to its MTGO customers.

These things make me, at least, think about what it is that makes pieces of cardboard with printing on them valuable.

Well, some will say that value is not a mystery. It comes from supply and demand, end of story.

That's true enough, and supply is no mystery, since whatever X is, for every card, there were X copies of it printed for some X.

But demand is the mystery.

I mean, some of demand is obvious. If you need four copies of Underground Sea to build that hopefully prize-winning Legacy deck you want to play, you'll be willing to pay a few dollars for them.

But there's more to it than that. A part of the value of a Magic card is its collectability. So a Beta Black Lotus is worth more than an Unlimited Black Lotus.

Would having more Vintage events offset the negative impact on P9 prices of throwing the Reprint Policy to the wind and printing more copies of the P9? After all, if the demand for copies of the P9 comes from two factors -

  • their collector value, and
  • their utility in play


then, since reprints wouldn't be counterfeits (a Magic 2015 Black Lotus wouldn't be an Unlimited Black Lotus or a Beta Black Lotus), and Magic would remain a recognized game with a rich history, the collector value shouldn't change,

and the use value of the P9 cards would shoot up if there were more opportunities to play Vintage, the utility value would increase, wouldn't it?

Of course, this isn't true. The utility value, since it would be attainable at a much lower cost, would collapse to match that cost. So an Unlimited Edition Black Lotus might go from $1,500 to $200 if you could get a reprinted one for $20, and a Beta Black Lotus would likely lose a few more dollars off its price.

And what isn't lost in price would be lost in liquidity, particularly for Unlimited cards.

Demand is built on very subjective factors that motivate the desire for a thing. And so Wizards is right to tread cautiously with the Reprint Policy.
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 10:34AM #2
perodequeso
Date Joined: Nov 10, 2009
Posts: 1,819

Jan 10, 2013 -- 10:18PM, quadibloc wrote:

These things make me, at least, think about what it is that makes pieces of cardboard with printing on them valuable.



The same thing that makes pieces of paper with printing on them valuable, the Social Contract and faith.  It doesn't cost any more to print a $100 bill than to print a $1 bill, the $100 doesn't weigh more than a $1, yet we accept that a $100 bill has 100x value because it says so.  If you had a $100 dollars worth of gold vs. a $1 worth you'd see the difference it's palpable.  With paper it's just based on acceptance.

This sort of thing only works in a closed system.  Some cards are worth more based on scarcity, yet that scarcity is artificial.  WOTC could print any card in any amount they want.  They've chosen to create a closed system with it's own rules.  These rules govern value based upon scarcity(supply), and utility(demand).  WOTC could just sell complete sets of 4 of every thing, eliminate Limited(along with all the "bad" cards for sed environment), and card prices would all be flat.

WOTC has created a "microeconomy" and has to balance all the factors to keep it going without it imploding(like the U.S. economy), or drying up.  IMHO they've managed to do a fine job.  They have more players than ever, they have tighter design controls, and create a kick-ass product.

I fell that the Reserved list serves mutiple purposes.  It keeps the design and color pie of the modern game in check(power levels too) and it keeps collector's happy.  Most of the cards on the list aren't even worth reprinting, and the ones that are don't fit into the modern game balance.

So what if Vintage and Legecy die off as formats, WOTC has more to gain going forward than looking back.  The fact that MTG is a collectable is oft overlooked by players, especially by the younger, newer, and poorer players.  The younger players want what they want right now without having to exert any effort to aquire.  The poorer players are indignant because they can't afford what they want.  I feel that people should just forget about the cards on the Reserved list and move on with life.  The Op is correct, WOTC is right to tread cautiously with reprints, and thet have that right.

Not having the Reserved list to begin with would have been the best policy, but it's there for whatever reasons they feel it necessary, and it doesn't look like it's going away any time soon.

If I had a point I may have lost it in my psycho-babble.  Need coffee!

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5 months ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 10:42AM #3
Taldier
Date Joined: Oct 9, 2011
Posts: 476

Jan 11, 2013 -- 10:34AM, perodequeso wrote:

...
So what if Vintage and Legecy die off as formats, WOTC has more to gain going forward than looking back.
...




Then we all forever lose an incredibly deep, complex, and interesting game that plays a lot differently from the more modern version of Magic.

Also, a lot of those "collectable" cards I own.. the ones with value we're supposed to be "protecting" all become just scraps of cardboard because nobody needs them for anything anymore.

Trivializing this really doesnt help the issue.

Jan 11, 2013 -- 10:34AM, perodequeso wrote:

...
I fell that the Reserved list serves mutiple purposes.  It keeps the design and color pie of the modern game in check(power levels too) and it keeps collector's happy.  Most of the cards on the list aren't even worth reprinting, and the ones that are don't fit into the modern game balance.
...




Absolute nonsense.  Reprinting cards does not require you to put them into Modern or Standard.  We have modern framed Counterspell s from duel decks but they are still not modern legal.

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5 months ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 10:44AM #4
Dragon_Nut
Date Joined: Feb 22, 2005
Posts: 2,135

Jan 11, 2013 -- 10:34AM, perodequeso wrote:

I fell that the Reserved list serves mutiple purposes.  It keeps the design and color pie of the modern game in check(power levels too) and it keeps collector's happy.  Most of the cards on the list aren't even worth reprinting, and the ones that are don't fit into the modern game balance.



Yeah, I'm not buying this one. There are a few reasons (Although I consider them insufficient) for keeping the reserved list, but this isn't one of them. How does not being able to print Thunder Spirit help keep game balance? What if a card is at basically a perfect power level and does something very basic? What purpose is served by forcing Wizards to create a card that is either more or less powerful in order to accomplish an effect that's already been done well? The only reason we were able to get Reverberate was because Fork had a convenient extra 'that spell is red' line that they could remove in order to reprint it as a 'different' card.

Wizards doesn't need the reserved list to keep the game balanced. Even if it vanished tonight, they wouldn't start put Library of Alexandria or Time Walk in the next expansion. The most likely course of action would be to use shiny special promo Power 9 as major tournament prizes and put others in a 'Vintage Masters' similar to the Modern Masters we're getting.

At the very least, the reserved list could stand to be reduced. Wizards should find a way to eliminate all cards at, for example, $2 or less average market value. I somehow doubt anybody is worried about the value of Storm Spirit dropping. Admitteldy, they'd have to find some way to acertain what market value is, but that's a relatively small concern. It's unlikely that they'll need or want to reprint Gosta Dirk but with a shorter reserved list collectors could at least pretend there was a sane reason for not reprinting any of them.

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5 months ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 11:28AM #5
perodequeso
Date Joined: Nov 10, 2009
Posts: 1,819
@ Dragon_Nut, they do tend to remake those useful, perfectly powered cards from the past.  Your Reverberate example is perfect.  By the way, they remade Thunder Spirit , it's even better as Voiceless Spirit .  Why do we care if cards that would never see play to begin with are on some list to not get reprinted.  The  list keep set designers from going there without really good cause.  Us debating it is silly and moot.

@ Taldier, I find your first point to be a tad saccharine.  I own P9, a play set of Duals, Mana Crypt , Library of Alexandria , etc..  I never get to play Vintage or Legacy. 99.9% of players I encounter only play the more modern formats or casual.  Which brings me to your second point, why would they reprint money cards for a casual only product?  Nobody cares if Counterspell makes it into a casual product, but you won't see Mishra's Workshop there any time soon.

BTW, I was only tossing out some plausible reasons for the Reserved List.  I think they keep it in place for a varitety of reasons, besides keeping the second hand prices exhorbitant.
People are really good at finding reasons that they think the List should go, or why it exists, but thats all trivial to the fact that it does exist, and the reasons WOTC is keeping it. 
STEP 1: Find your cousin

STEP 2: Get your cousin in the cannon

STEP: 3 Find another cousin
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 11:36AM #6
Dragon_Nut
Date Joined: Feb 22, 2005
Posts: 2,135
Honestly the most annoying part of these discussions is that no matter how much back and forth we have, Wizards absolutely will not change.

With other topics if enough players dislike something, Wizards tends to take player feedback into account. There were a lot of players who didn't like the cheap hexproof + evasion found on cards like Invisible Stalker so they're dialing that back.

But with the reserved list, I'm reasonably certain pretty much every important figure at Wizards has said it was a mistake and quite a few have said they wish they could remove it. It's annoying knowing that something that bugs players and devs alike continues to exist due to people who never speak up continuing to support it for reasons they won't discuss.

I think this is the closest we've come in a long while to have an actual discussion with somebody who legitimately supports the continued existence of the reserved list.
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 11:40AM #7
Enigma256
Date Joined: Jul 28, 2010
Posts: 13,852
it seems the backlash from Phyrexian Negator and Karn, Silver Golem was big enough for them to never ever touch the Reserved List again

and with Modern I frankly don't see a need to, for most cards
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 11:45AM #8
bay_falconer
Date Joined: Oct 12, 2010
Posts: 9,710

Jan 11, 2013 -- 10:44AM, Dragon_Nut wrote:

Yeah, I'm not buying this one.




Yeah, it's like when MaRo says "balance issues". Which apparently means Scryb Sprites is more broken than Channel . Not buying it.

Jun 27, 2012 -- 12:04AM, GM_Champion wrote:

Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.


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5 months ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 11:47AM #9
perodequeso
Date Joined: Nov 10, 2009
Posts: 1,819

Jan 11, 2013 -- 11:40AM, Enigma256 wrote:

it seems the backlash from Phyrexian Negator and Karn, Silver Golem was big enough for them to never ever touch the Reserved List again



I'm actually conflicted about the list, but who is giving out the backlahings, you never see these people in public forums.

STEP 1: Find your cousin

STEP 2: Get your cousin in the cannon

STEP: 3 Find another cousin
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 11:49AM #10
Enigma256
Date Joined: Jul 28, 2010
Posts: 13,852

Jan 11, 2013 -- 11:47AM, perodequeso wrote:

Jan 11, 2013 -- 11:40AM, Enigma256 wrote:

it seems the backlash from Phyrexian Negator and Karn, Silver Golem was big enough for them to never ever touch the Reserved List again


I'm actually conflicted about the list, but who is giving out the backlahings, you never see these people in public forums.


I have no idea, but they must exist
somewhere

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