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Magic: The Gathering Design & Developme.. [Color Pie] Individual creature removal - White...
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Switch to Forum Live View [Color Pie] Individual creature removal - White and Black
6 months ago  ::  Jan 09, 2013 - 11:29AM #1
Shiny_Umbreon
Date Joined: Jun 10, 2009
Posts: 1,939
In theory:

White is the color of law and order. It will not doubt to take action, but only if it finds you threatening. Black is the color of selfishness and invidualism, and so doesn't care who you are. If you stand in its way, it's going to kill you, even if it has to pull some convoluted demonic pacts or whatever. It gets the job done.

In practice:

A -White gets Auras that stop a creature, most often from attacking and blocking, but other times from activating abilities as well. However, white doesn't kill them, so their static and triggered abilities still work, and destroying the enchantment leaves the creature free. Examples: Pacifism , Arrest , Faith's Fetters , Bonds of Faith , Burden of Guilt , Recumbent Bliss .

B -White gets Oblivion Ring-like permanents that exile and give it back if the ever leave the battlefield (with the known trick that if you make the permanent leave in response you never give it back). These often don't have restrictions, because the drawback is the possibility to reverse it. However, if it's an enchantment, everyone knows it doesn't really come back that often and against black and red it's like it didn't have any drawback at all. Examples: Fiend Hunter , Oblivion Ring , Journey to Nowhere , Detention Sphere .

C -White gets destruction or exile effects without the possibility of reversing, but they often have restrictions. The most common are checking if a creature is attacking, or if it has an enemy color, but all sort of restrictions can be possible, most often hinting that the creature is somehow dangerous to white. Examples: Avenging Arrow , Divine Verdict , Rebuke , Smite the Monstrous , Celestial Purge , Condemn .

D -White very rarely gets destruction or exile effects that are unconditional and irreversible. The cheaper ones are well known because they are very efficient. Path to Exile , Swords to Plowshares , Afterlife , Oblation . But this also happens with less known cards ("limited fodder") like Iona's Judgment and Trostani's Judgment . The idea is that white gets rid of anything if it gives you something back. This is a bit of a weak argument, and some people inside R&D don't support it, including Mark Rosewater.

E -Black gets direct removal without asking questions, and some that are pretty much unconditional (because the condition is very wide). Murder , Launch Party , Sever the Bloodline , Chill to the Bone , Rend Flesh , Victim of Night .

F- Since black gets so much removal (mostly destruction), the vast majority more efficient but restrictive ones. Doom Blade , Go for the Throat , Ultimate Price , Assassinate . It's impossible that these don't exist, because the design space for unconditional removal is pretty low.

F -Black gets "weaken" -N/-N effects at all sizes and rarities. Examples: Disfigure , Dead Weight , Grasp of Darkness , Death Wind .

G- Black gets "edict" effects, very rarely for all types of permanents. Examples: Geth's Verdict , Liliana of the Veil , Tribute to Hunger .

Conclusion:

A's are very rare nowadays, because B's are the new thing they seem to be exploring a lot. In both cases, though, and except for Fiend Hunter , they are all enchantmens, meaning their possibility of reverting them is just theoretical. The very high-profile D's don't help either.

They used black to explore the many possibilities of removal including conditional ones, so there are a lot of F's, and all the excessive "nonblack" clauses they used in the past don't help.

In the end, I think white is pretty much seen as the best removal color, and black supports that. And not only because it historically has Swords to Plowshares , but because in black you are thinking when to use Doom Blade and when to use Go for the Throat while white very casually just gets Journey to Nowhere , for example.

My solution:

Promote unconditional removal in black. I know it's hard to do so without eating up design space quickly, but they should try.

"Destroy target creature."
"Exile target creature."
"Destroy target creature. Its controller loses 2 life."
"Destroy target creature. Its controller discards a card." 
"Destroy target creature and target land."

are all fine lines for removal spells. If you want to combine it with the set's mechanics, you can have:

", Sacrifice Executioner's Capsule : Destroy target creature."
"... Remove three quest counters from ~ and sacrifice it: Destroy up to two target creatures."
"Destroy target creature. Flashback ."
"Whenever ~ attacks, if you control no other creatures, destroy target creature defending player controls."

And so on. As for white, either make more creatures for Oblivion Ring effects (it's cool because they can have varying stats, costs and abilities) so that the reversible part is present, or just add the same conditions you use in C's.

Criminals' Prison
Enchantment (U)
Flash (You may cast this spell anytime you could cast an instant.)
When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, exile target creature that dealt damage to you this turn.
When CARDNAME leaves the battlefield, return the exiled card to the battlefield under its owner's control.

Trip to Somewhere Nice
Enchantment (C)
When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, exile target nonwhite creature.
When CARDNAME leaves the battlefield, return the exiled card to the battlefield under its owner's control.

That's my input. I'd like to hear opinions on this. 
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6 months ago  ::  Jan 09, 2013 - 5:17PM #2
HairlessThoctar
Date Joined: Dec 27, 2009
Posts: 7,644
It just bothers me how much they don't seem to listen to their own rules.
White has so many ways to get rid of creatures, its disgusting. 
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6 months ago  ::  Jan 10, 2013 - 9:26PM #3
Shiny_Umbreon
Date Joined: Jun 10, 2009
Posts: 1,939
Today a Gatecrash card was spoiled that makes a Sword to Plowshares for each opponent when it enters.
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6 months ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 12:57PM #4
bay_falconer
Date Joined: Oct 12, 2010
Posts: 9,710

Jan 9, 2013 -- 5:17PM, HairlessThoctar wrote:

It just bothers me how much they don't seem to listen to their own rules.
White has so many ways to get rid of creatures, its disgusting. 




TBH, white strikes me as the color most likely to kill you. It just has to perceive you as a threat to its utopia, even if you really aren't.

But I am annoyed by how "white removal has so many rules, there are no rules". I think the only thing white doesn't get at this point is land destrution, and that's just because the only white ways to do it ( Balance -like effects and destroy ALL the lands! ) are in the first case hella broken and in the second just plain unfun.

Jun 27, 2012 -- 12:04AM, GM_Champion wrote:

Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.


----
Autocard is your friend.

[c]Lightning Bolt[/c]
= Lightning Bolt
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6 months ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 1:11PM #5
HairlessThoctar
Date Joined: Dec 27, 2009
Posts: 7,644
By R&D's rules white removal is supposed to only work
1: Reactively
2: Be reversable

things like  Trostani's Judgement and  Iona's Judgement violate this.
Being really overcosted does not excuse this.

I hate them so much.

Edit: Forgot about
3: Give something in return (Path giving a land, Swords giving life, Wrath effects being symmetrical), but these have to be costed as such that the trade is 'fair'
The Primordial is fair because its really expensive.
Swords isn't because its instant and only one mana.  
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6 months ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 9:38PM #6
Shiny_Umbreon
Date Joined: Jun 10, 2009
Posts: 1,939
There aren't many cases where white gives something in return, which is why I didn't count it. I'm guessing Oblation , Swords to Plowshares , Path to Exile , Afterlife and Crib Swab (plus the new card) are all? 
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6 months ago  ::  Jan 13, 2013 - 8:43AM #7
HairlessThoctar
Date Joined: Dec 27, 2009
Posts: 7,644
I'm willing to consider sweeps in that last category because they're symmetrical.
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6 months ago  ::  Jan 15, 2013 - 1:37AM #8
Wynzerman
Date Joined: Oct 23, 2010
Posts: 3,609
I like it- though ti made me think of something interesting.  can remove anything non-creature or land these days with no real condition, but doesn't get non-permanent solutions to handling enchantments and artifacts- which I have come to find bothersome. Not because should be good at it, but because it seems apparent that some manner of silencing  or shushing an enchantment as opposed to crushing it feels very symmetrical to being the enemy color of and whom remove noncreatures easily.

also seems like it enjoys imprisonment in the sense of hushing something it cannot deal with as opposed to enjoying imprisoning as a means of flexibility.

Nihil
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant Non-Land Permanent
Counter activated abilities and triggered abilities from enchanted permanent
Enchanted permanent has no abilities

Maybe it's strange, but I think every color should have an answer for every type of threat or problem, but it makes sense for there to be rigamarole or difficulty in getting around certain types of permanents (such as using Auras.) There is just a deal of difficulty in finding which work-around seems most flavorful.


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6 months ago  ::  Jan 15, 2013 - 7:06AM #9
HairlessThoctar
Date Joined: Dec 27, 2009
Posts: 7,644
Black deals with enchantments and artifacts by Discarding   them or Extracting   them.

Black doesn't get removal for them because it can't destroy things that aren't alive.
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6 months ago  ::  Jan 15, 2013 - 10:51AM #10
Wynzerman
Date Joined: Oct 23, 2010
Posts: 3,609

Jan 15, 2013 -- 7:06AM, HairlessThoctar wrote:


Black doesn't get removal for them because it can't destroy things that aren't alive.




Precisely, can't destroy what isn't alive, but I'd think it reasonable for mana to silence it.



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