This led me to wonder why people play this way and a place for people to share odd stories about the stuff. I'm interested to hear why.
So, while watching Magic on Twitch.tv today I stumbled accross a magic match that was a bit odd:Spoiler:
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This led me to wonder why people play this way and a place for people to share odd stories about the stuff. I'm interested to hear wh
you mean the lands in front of the creatures? that is indeed strange
I don't think my picture was the best or the forum decreased the size but the playe on the left is playing with his cards upside down in relation to himself as well.
I don't think my picture was the best or the forum decreased the size but the playe on the left is playing with his cards upside down in relation to himself as well.
you mean the lands in front of the creatures? that is indeed strange
I don't think my picture was the best or the forum decreased the size but the playe on the left is playing with his cards upside down in relation to himself as well.
Lands "above" creatures is the way I've been doing it since '94. I know I'm in the minority on this one, but it isn't that weird.
As for the cards upside down, that's pretty spiffy. It's a courtesy to the opponent, it makes it easier for the opponent to read your cards. And I honestly have to admit, if you don't know what your own cards do in a constructed game, you're doing something wrong.
I don't think my picture was the best or the forum decreased the size but the playe on the left is playing with his cards upside down in relation to himself as well. [/quote]Lands "above" creatures is the way I've been doing it since '94. I know I'm
you mean the lands in front of the creatures? that is indeed strange
I don't think my picture was the best or the forum decreased the size but the playe on the left is playing with his cards upside down in relation to himself as well.
Lands "above" creatures is the way I've been doing it since '94. I know I'm in the minority on this one, but it isn't that weird.
As for the cards upside down, that's pretty spiffy. It's a courtesy to the opponent, it makes it easier for the opponent to read your cards. And I honestly have to admit, if you don't know what your own cards do in a constructed game, you're doing something wrong.
Yeah, that's the most common uncommon one and I'm used to it. I'm guessing some people aren't.
It felt like he was making it like modo for his opponent and even tapped the creatures in the same direction as modo too.
I've had an opponent break things up vertically with lands on the left and non-land permanents on the right. It was just very odd.
I don't think my picture was the best or the forum decreased the size but the playe on the left is playing with his cards upside down in relation to himself as well. [/quote]Lands "above" creatures is the way I've been doing it since '94. I know I'm
Lands "above" creatures is the way I've been doing it since '94. I know I'm in the minority on this one, but it isn't that weird.
I started in 94 too, and I also play lands above creatures. I've had a discussion with others about this, and one guy remembered that at the time, that's how the rulebook showed it.
I started in 94 too, and I also play lands above creatures. I've had a discussion with others about this, and one guy remembered that at the time, that's how the rulebook showed it.
I prefer creatures out front, lands closest to me, other stuff nearby.
Exiled stuff is (if imprinted, haunting, or Spoiler:Show
encoded
) on the permanent it's on; otherwise, it's in a pile next to the graveyard, turned sideways. (Notable exception is suspended stuff, just because that looks weird.)
Stuff that is attacking or blocking goes to the red zone, blockers matching attackers.
I prefer creatures out front, lands closest to me, other stuff nearby.Exiled stuff is (if imprinted, haunting, or Spoiler:
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encoded) on the permanent it's on; otherwise, it's in a pile next to the graveyard, turned sideways. (Notable excep
I understand that people do this simply because they are used to doing it that way, but I've always found it somewhat annoying. It almost feels as though the other person is childishly trying to hide something from me.
Why not put the relevant cards that do things in front where your opponent can easily read them without having to ask you to hand it over?
I understand that people do this simply because they are used to doing it that way, but I've always found it somewhat annoying. It almost feels as though the other person is childishly trying to hide something from me.Why not put the relevant cards
Why not put the relevant cards that do things in front where your opponent can easily read them without having to ask you to hand it over?
Because I arrange my permanents for my use, not my opponent's. Does my opponent tap my creatures to attack or my lands for mana? Generally not. If they have questions or need to see something I gladly answer or let people see cards.
Because I arrange my permanents for my use, not my opponent's. Does my opponent tap my creatures to attack or my lands for mana? Generally not. If they have questions or need to see something I gladly answer or let people see cards.
I don't think my picture was the best or the forum decreased the size but the playe on the left is playing with his cards upside down in relation to himself as well.
I'll do this when teaching new players. But other than that, I don't. It's a weird habit to get into.
Lands "above" creatures is the way I've been doing it since '94. I know I'm in the minority on this one, but it isn't that weird.
I still fall back into this old habit sometimes. It's how *everyone* played back then. I'm pretty sure the 4th/5th edition rulebook depicted it that way.
I'll do this when teaching new players. But other than that, I don't. It's a weird habit to get into.I still fall back into this old habit sometimes. It's how *everyone* played back then. I'm pretty sure the 4th/5th edition rulebook depicted it t
Lands "above" creatures is the way I've been doing it since '94. I know I'm in the minority on this one, but it isn't that weird.
I still fall back into this old habit sometimes. It's how *everyone* played back then. I'm pretty sure the 4th/5th edition rulebook depicted it that way.
Revised. ABU wouldn't surprise me, either.
I still fall back into this old habit sometimes. It's how *everyone* played back then. I'm pretty sure the 4th/5th edition rulebook depicted it that way.[/quote]Revised. ABU wouldn't surprise me, either.
I wonder when the shift into the current norm happened. I find it easier for creature combat to have everything on top so I can move stuff around as needed.
I wonder when the shift into the current norm happened. I find it easier for creature combat to have everything on top so I can move stuff around as needed.
Lands up top was the OLD school way of playing. Somewhere around Revised, players started doing it with creatures up top so it was easier to slide a creature up to show what was blocking what.
Lands up top was the OLD school way of playing. Somewhere around Revised, players started doing it with creatures up top so it was easier to slide a creature up to show what was blocking what.
I do my field in thirds, it's mostly the same format as "Lands Above" , but it works something like this....
Mana Sources Active Permanents | Static Permanents
Active permanents mostly include permanents which require constant attention or are easy to miss, upkeep triggers, planeswalkers, Artifacts/Enchantments/Creatures with AAs
Static permanents are mostly creatures or enchantments, artifacts and emblems that fundamentally change the rules of the game. Creatures aren't considered active because their time to be active is during a fraction of a turn (specifically my turn), and the limited activity makes it less necessary to be as dogged about following them as the active permanent zone.
It's just OCD mostly, to keep the field manageable and have conceptual priority beyond the cards in my hand at alll times. I do like the confidence presented in showing your opponent your cards at all times, but I also like to read and reread even when I have my entire deck memorized to jog myself about potential plays.
I do my field in thirds, it's mostly the same format as "Lands Above" , but it works something like this.... Mana SourcesActive Permanents | Static PermanentsActive permanents mostly include permanents which require constant at
Why not put the relevant cards that do things in front where your opponent can easily read them without having to ask you to hand it over?
Because I arrange my permanents for my use, not my opponent's. Does my opponent tap my creatures to attack or my lands for mana? Generally not. If they have questions or need to see something I gladly answer or let people see cards.
The other reason is that if you're running a control deck (or against a control deck) having both players able to see which specific lands are untapped without needing to specifically ask can be convenient.
That said, there is a point where problems can occur. (Not claiming anybody here does this, as I'm quite certain they don't) At my local FNM had an issue where a player made a fatal mistake because of failing to notice an Intangible Virtue while his opponent was playing this way. Normally I would have just blamed him for not paying attention, but the way his opponent had the Virtue placed, it was almost directly under his elbow and his relatively heavy jacket covered 90% of the card.
Point being, make sure your opponent can actually see everything regardless of how you choose to play.
Because I arrange my permanents for my use, not my opponent's. Does my opponent tap my creatures to attack or my lands for mana? Generally not. If they have questions or need to see something I gladly answer or let people see cards.[/quote]The other
That said, there is a point where problems can occur. (Not claiming anybody here does this, as I'm quite certain they don't) At my local FNM had an issue where a player made a fatal mistake because of failing to notice an Intangible Virtue while his opponent was playing this way. Normally I would have just blamed him for not paying attention, but the way his opponent had the Virtue placed, it was almost directly under his elbow and his relatively heavy jacket covered 90% of the card.
Point being, make sure your opponent can actually see everything regardless of how you choose to play.
I hate how this is going to sound, but it IS your responsibility to make sure you can see all permanents on the field.I've seen new players often try to use the tactical elbow, and the simple answer is to tell them to move their elbow. Similarly, people who don't tap their lands and "keep it in their head" during the early turns need to be told to turn their cards sideways so that they aren't casting any free spells because they forgot about their tapped mana.
I hate how this is going to sound, but it IS your responsibility to make sure you can see all permanents on the field.I've seen new players often try to use the tactical elbow, and the simple answer is to tell them to move their elbow. Similarly, peo
That said, there is a point where problems can occur. (Not claiming anybody here does this, as I'm quite certain they don't) At my local FNM had an issue where a player made a fatal mistake because of failing to notice an Intangible Virtue while his opponent was playing this way. Normally I would have just blamed him for not paying attention, but the way his opponent had the Virtue placed, it was almost directly under his elbow and his relatively heavy jacket covered 90% of the card.
Point being, make sure your opponent can actually see everything regardless of how you choose to play.
I hate how this is going to sound, but it IS your responsibility to make sure you can see all permanents on the field.I've seen new players often try to use the tactical elbow, and the simple answer is to tell them to move their elbow. Similarly, people who don't tap their lands and "keep it in their head" during the early turns need to be told to turn their cards sideways so that they aren't casting any free spells because they forgot about their tapped mana.
I hate hearing horror stories like this. Fortunately the group that plays at my LGS are all generally good guys and I haven't heard of anybody trying to be shady or cheating (we've had some stupid things happen when players were verbally getting into it). I really hate winning because something stupid like my board position was messy so I'm pretty attentive to keep everything really organized not just for me but my opponent.
I hate how this is going to sound, but it IS your responsibility to make sure you can see all permanents on the field.I've seen new players often try to use the tactical elbow, and the simple answer is to tell them to move their elbow. Similarly, peo
I understand that people do this simply because they are used to doing it that way, but I've always found it somewhat annoying. It almost feels as though the other person is childishly trying to hide something from me.
Why not put the relevant cards that do things in front where your opponent can easily read them without having to ask you to hand it over?
There is probably many things you do in your life that are not as effecient as they could be, but you do it anyway because that is how you started doing them and just never changed.
When I started drafting a few years back that was the first time I played with people who put the lands on the bottom. It was rather tough for me to try and switch after so many years of doing it the other way. Though now I am just use to it because I have been doing it for years with the lands closest to me.
There is probably many things you do in your life that are not as effecient as they could be, but you do it anyway because that is how you started doing them and just never changed.When I started drafting a few years back that was the first time I pl
I also play with my lands in front (i.e. closer to my opponent). I didn't use to, but I found that I was often just tapping mana without any thought. So I changed the way I lay more board out so it gives me an extra split second to make sure I tap correctly. It's just a visual trigger that helps me out during a match.
My "unique" spin on it is that I often also play with my graveyard going horizontally across the top of my playmat (above my lands, but not over them). I started doing this when I played a lot of graveyard based decks. Again, this was due to correcting a bad habit. I'd often take a look over at my graveyard when I drew something that interacted with it, even though I knew what was in it. By keeping it on top, I can look at it without altering my opponent because it looks like I'm studying the board or my lands or whatever.
Plus, I think it adds a bit of an edge against a lot of players. I'm used to seeing boards like this as a lot of my friends play with strange layouts in testing and in general, especially when we're preparing for a big event. So I spend no additional mental energy in comprehending the board, but they have to think through it a bit more.
Also, a lot of low-level, wanna-be spikes get put on tilt by it. So there's that major benefit...
I also play with my lands in front (i.e. closer to my opponent). I didn't use to, but I found that I was often just tapping mana without any thought. So I changed the way I lay more board out so it gives me an extra split second to make sure I tap
I started playing with my cards upside down a while ago, and it's been great. I play with a lot of newer players who don't know cards by sight, and it speeds up the game a ton by letting them see what everything is easily. I already know what everything is, so it doesn't bother me in the slightest.
I started playing with my cards upside down a while ago, and it's been great. I play with a lot of newer players who don't know cards by sight, and it speeds up the game a ton by letting them see what everything is easily. I already know what everyth
I'm gonna start testing different layouts to see how people feel during the game. I wonder if there's a psychological edge to be gained there? Imagine playing so that your permanents were just lined up in chronological order of when they entered the battlefield. Or doing type columns. Or arranging them alphabetically.
I'm gonna start testing different layouts to see how people feel during the game. I wonder if there's a psychological edge to be gained there? Imagine playing so that your permanents were just lined up in chronological order of when they entered the
I hate how this is going to sound, but it IS your responsibility to make sure you can see all permanents on the field.
It is *both* players responsibility to ensure the board state is clear (visibility-wise, at least). Willfully attempting to hide public information is definitely a "No," (perhaps even negligently).
It is *both* players responsibility to ensure the board state is clear (visibility-wise, at least). Willfully attempting to hide public information is definitely a "No," (perhaps even negligently).
I'm pretty sure the old-school rules taught to play lands toward the center of the battlefield, creatures closest to you. That's also how I learned, and I started back when random 60-card starter decks came with actual rule books in them. Fourth Edition, I think it was. It took me forever to break that habit when I returned to the game.
I'm pretty sure the old-school rules taught to play lands toward the center of the battlefield, creatures closest to you. That's also how I learned, and I started back when random 60-card starter decks came with actual rule books in them. Fourth Ed
I believe I lay out my battlefield in a pretty standard way - lands at the back, upright to me, creatures in front of that, artifacts/enchantments/planeswalkers to the left or right, though anything with an on-upkeep trigger is usually put near the library (as well as counter-on-top of library) for remembering.
However, whatever people are comfortable with, as long as it presents the battlefield in a clear way, is fine in my books.
I believe I lay out my battlefield in a pretty standard way - lands at the back, upright to me, creatures in front of that, artifacts/enchantments/planeswalkers to the left or right, though anything with an on-upkeep trigger is usually put near the l
My other pet peeve is people who put their graveyards right in front of their library. This is really only an issue when there's only one or two cards in it and the top card is a permanent, but it's still kind of annoying.
That, and people who represent tokens using only a die.
My other pet peeve is people who put their graveyards right in front of their library. This is really only an issue when there's only one or two cards in it and the top card is a permanent, but it's still kind of annoying.That, and people who represe
My other pet peeve is people who put their graveyards right in front of their library. This is really only an issue when there's only one or two cards in it and the top card is a permanent, but it's still kind of annoying.
That, and people who represent tokens using only a die.
People who do no housecleanig during the course of the game. I understand that cards will litter the field, but people who make no effort to reorganize the field in a responsible manner and obviously aren't absolutely new to the game need to get flicked between the eyes.
Loud tilting also makes me want to go postal- I've almost switched FLGS to one that is an extra 5-10 mile drive just because I get tired of hearing constant moaning while I try to play the game... It's also the same reason that I have a hard time watching Michael Jacob stream- he tilts hard, and when he's winning he's even MORE obnoxious.
People who do no housecleanig during the course of the game. I understand that cards will litter the field, but people who make no effort to reorganize the field in a responsible manner and obviously aren't absolutely new to the game need to get flic
So, while watching Magic on Twitch.tv today I stumbled accross a magic match that was a bit odd:
This led me to wonder why people play this way and a place for people to share odd stories about the stuff. I'm interested to hear why.
Because they're freaks. The guy with his stuff turned upside down, I'd just be like, "Dude your stuff is upside down. What's that supposed to mean? Like I'm a ******* moron or something? I need you to turn your cards toward me because I'm a ******* moron who doesn't know what the cards are? Oh I see, you're the smart one here huh? Mr. Smarty McBrain over here huh? Hey everyone come check out the guy with the big brain over here! He's so smart he goes ahead and turns his cards upside down so his backwards-dumb-***-****-of-a-moron opponent can read them and understand them a little better!" Then I'd throw the table over.
The only time I turn my card facing the opponent is if they gain control of my card. Then I turn it and say, "Now we know that you control it" because prior to this Chumlee is reaching his pizza stained fingers at my Elspeth with a goofy smile on his pizza soaked chin like he thinks he's just going to grap hold my Elspeth and that's when I say (from under my hooded cloak- I wear a hooded cloak) "You reach that chubby hand any nearer my Elspeth and you'll be drawing back a bloody nub. And God help you if you get blood on my cards. Jesus Christ himself can walk through that door he ain't going to help you if you get blood on my cards."
As for the "put the lands in front of the other permanents" freaks, they're still living in the past. They're like the Flat Earth Society of MTG. Plus they make me feel like they're up to something. Something sinister. Like they're trying to hide something from me. "here let me put my lands up front so it'll be more difficult for you to notice..." Hello? You're going to be tapping your lands way more consistently than anything else- just put them closer to you and it'll be easier for everyone. But oh no, we can't do that. Got to go with the way-back machine. These people still use faxes and VHS machines, and drive around with 8-track cassette players in their VW Rabbits. Besides overturning the table there's only one thing we can do. Wait for them to die off.
And don't even get me started on the people who use dice as tokens and counters and everything else so when you look across the table and ask, "Which of those ************* dice is your life total?" they look perplexed and start going on about "tapped dice" THERE'S NO SUCH A THING AS A TAPPED DIE! *overturns table*
Because they're freaks. The guy with his stuff turned upside down, I'd just be like, "Dude your stuff is upside down. What's that supposed to mean? Like I'm a ******* moron or something? I need you to turn your cards toward me because I'm a ******* m
Hmm, my brother plays with his GY in front of him, mainly because he plays control and gets no board presence till late game, and that way is GY is really public.
His board.....
GY
creatures/permanents
lands
^^^^^^^^^^ From his point of view.
I sometimes get the bad habit of needing to stretch my arms out (cramps and what not from "withdrawing" them so much) that I end up covering my lands, and then need to uncover them again =X.
Hmm, my brother plays with his GY in front of him, mainly because he plays control and gets no board presence till late game, and that way is GY is really public.His board.....GYcreatures/permanentslands^^^^^^^^^^From his point of view.I sometimes ge
That, and people who represent tokens using only a die.
Seriously, you get a deck of cards for $5. That's 54 tokens, not counting the rules card. Most tokens can go name/type at the top, color at the side, rules text (if any) at the bottom, and the rest can just use the 40 cards that aren't face cards.
One thing that bugs the hell out of me is when people use the living weapon as a representation of the germ token and the equipment. Yeah, how will that go when I Go for the Throat or (if you've put something else on it to keep it from dying) Naturalize ?
Seriously, you get a deck of cards for $5. That's 54 tokens, not counting the rules card. Most tokens can go name/type at the top, color at the side, rules text (if any) at the bottom, and the rest can just use the 40 cards that aren't face cards.Dic
Hmm, my brother plays with his GY in front of him, mainly because he plays control and gets no board presence till late game, and that way is GY is really public.
I always play with it beside my library but the week I was running Burning Vengeance I did spread it out with one pile of lands and other non-flashbackable things and then like 8 piles of different spells.
It intimidated the hell out of at least one of my opponents who was a newish player and was somewhat baffled to see me sifting through my graveyard like it was a second hand.
Not that good of a deck but oh so very much fun to run.
I always play with it beside my library but the week I was running Burning Vengeance I did spread it out with one pile of lands and other non-flashbackable things and then like 8 piles of different spells.It intimi
Back in the day (old geezer wheeze) when I'd play my thrull deck, I used to put two tapped swamps under my breeding pits, and keep them there, so I'd never forget to pay the upkeep cost. The only real "alternative" layout I use now is occasionally putting Inaction Injunction in front of the detained creature instead of directly in the graveyard, because my opponents have a tendancy to forget it's been detained. (It goes to the graveyard at the start of my next turn.) I've got a neat little card holder for my deck, and my graveyard goes to the left of it... arranged so I can see the card names of each, as I've got either flashback or scavenge cards to access. Exiled cards go to the right, turned sideways. My life counter goes in front of it, closer to my opponent. (It's a massive 20-sided die.) dice and tap stones (now mostly unused) go to the left of the play area. Oh, and I leave tapped lands on the same pile as untapped lands, but do turn them sideways. Makes more sense to put lands closer than creatures, since you usually go to tap lands more frequently than you tap creatures.
Though I guess, since I'm left handed, I could put all my lands to my left and all my creatures on my right. Hmm. Maybe I'll try that just to be unique.
Back in the day (old geezer wheeze) when I'd play my thrull deck, I used to put two tapped swamps under my breeding pits, and keep them there, so I'd never forget to pay the upkeep cost. The only real "alternative" layout I use now is occasionally pu
So, while watching Magic on Twitch.tv today I stumbled accross a magic match that was a bit odd:
This led me to wonder why people play this way and a place for people to share odd stories about the stuff. I'm interested to hear why.
Because they're freaks. The guy with his stuff turned upside down, I'd just be like, "Dude your stuff is upside down. What's that supposed to mean? Like I'm a ******* moron or something? I need you to turn your cards toward me because I'm a ******* moron who doesn't know what the cards are? Oh I see, you're the smart one here huh? Mr. Smarty McBrain over here huh? Hey everyone come check out the guy with the big brain over here! He's so smart he goes ahead and turns his cards upside down so his backwards-dumb-***-****-of-a-moron opponent can read them and understand them a little better!" Then I'd throw the table over.
The only time I turn my card facing the opponent is if they gain control of my card. Then I turn it and say, "Now we know that you control it" because prior to this Chumlee is reaching his pizza stained fingers at my Elspeth with a goofy smile on his pizza soaked chin like he thinks he's just going to grap hold my Elspeth and that's when I say (from under my hooded cloak- I wear a hooded cloak) "You reach that chubby hand any nearer my Elspeth and you'll be drawing back a bloody nub. And God help you if you get blood on my cards. Jesus Christ himself can walk through that door he ain't going to help you if you get blood on my cards."
As for the "put the lands in front of the other permanents" freaks, they're still living in the past. They're like the Flat Earth Society of MTG. Plus they make me feel like they're up to something. Something sinister. Like they're trying to hide something from me. "here let me put my lands up front so it'll be more difficult for you to notice..." Hello? You're going to be tapping your lands way more consistently than anything else- just put them closer to you and it'll be easier for everyone. But oh no, we can't do that. Got to go with the way-back machine. These people still use faxes and VHS machines, and drive around with 8-track cassette players in their VW Rabbits. Besides overturning the table there's only one thing we can do. Wait for them to die off.
I love this post, this is sort of how I feel about this topic(maybe less vitriolic).
Because they're freaks. The guy with his stuff turned upside down, I'd just be like, "Dude your stuff is upside down. What's that supposed to mean? Like I'm a ******* moron or something? I need you to turn your cards toward me because I'm a ******* m
1) You want to help me? You think I need any help? YOU'RE BEING NICE? HELL DO I LOOK LIKE SOMEONE YOU HAVE TO BE NICE WITH?
2) All Magic players are eating pizza and will drip goddamn grease all over my unsleeved cards, to hell I'll let them put it on their side of the battlefield I prefer an unclear gamestate to risking my precious cards.
3) My way of arranging my battlefield is the only right way. People with other methods are freaks. Why? Because it's clearer when you put it my way for the other player (which means I consider that all player should think their opponent is a moron (see paragraph 1) and I'm the only one who can create an unclear gamestate when I want to (see paragraph 2)).
I mean, it was a funny read, but hardly anything substantive that makes sense.
His three paragraphs :1) You want to help me? You think I need any help? YOU'RE BEING NICE? HELL DO I LOOK LIKE SOMEONE YOU HAVE TO BE NICE WITH?2) All Magic players are eating pizza and will drip goddamn grease all over my unsleeved cards, to hell I
My friends mostly started playing a long time ago(I started more recently - Time Spiral), and one of them does the lands-in-front thing because (as stated several times in this thread) that's how it was done then.
But "because it's how I've always done it" is a stupid reason to continue a practice, regardless of anyone's personal feelings on the matter.
My friends mostly started playing a long time ago(I started more recently - Time Spiral), and one of them does the lands-in-front thing because (as stated several times in this thread) that's how it was done then.But "because it's how I've always don
I've always played with my lands in front. The guys at my local shop always give me grief for it, so I'm glad I'm not the only one who does this. Also, when people tell me to do it differently, I tell them to shove it. Too many people have OCD in this hobby.
I've always played with my lands in front. The guys at my local shop always give me grief for it, so I'm glad I'm not the only one who does this. Also, when people tell me to do it differently, I tell them to shove it. Too many people have OCD in thi
And "everyone else does it it differently" is an equally stupid reason to change.
I don't disagree with that, same as I didn't suggest it. If we set aside our personal preferences for a moment we could probably come to a consensus on what would be the best board layout to enforce.
Maybe:
Creatures and other nonland permanents shall be placed closer to the opponent than the player relative the lands. They're the ones that mostly interact with opponents' cards (attacking/blocking/enchanting , etc.), so it makes sense to keep them closer to those cards. They also generally contribute more to the complexity of the game state than the lands, so having them all close together eases board comprehension and speeds up gameplay. Creatures especially will more often be moving around, entering the 'red zone' etc., and should be kept close to it so as not to require them to be picked up or otherwise physically moved through the lands.
The library should be positioned opposite the player's dominant arm (right-handed players have their library to their left). The dominant arm is the one most used to manipulate cards in play and is the one most likely to accidentally come into contact with cards in other zones(such as the library), and knock them together or something. This is actually a problem in tournaments, and positioning the library opposite the dominant arm serves to minimize the risk.
The graveyard should be positioned adjacent to the library, further away from the dominant arm relative to the library. It should not be positioned adjacent to the library closer to the player than his/her opponent as that may cause the library to visually obscure cards in the graveyard(a public zone). Nor should it be placed closer to the opponent than the player as that may cause the graveyard to mingle with the battlefield and increase board state complexity.
I don't disagree with that, same as I didn't suggest it. If we set aside our personal preferences for a moment we could probably come to a consensus on what would be the best board layout to enforce.Maybe:Creatures and other nonland permanents shall
And "everyone else does it it differently" is an equally stupid reason to change.
I don't disagree with that, same as I didn't suggest it. If we set aside our personal preferences for a moment we could probably come to a consensus on what would be the best board layout to enforce.
I think the best board layout to enforce is none. There has never been any enforcement of board layout, nor do I think there should be. If someone wants to have their library in the center with their various zones and permanents forming concentric circles around it, that's their choice. (It'd probably look both weird and awesome, and be a total bitch to keep track of, but that isn't the point.)
I don't disagree with that, same as I didn't suggest it. If we set aside our personal preferences for a moment we could probably come to a consensus on what would be the best board layout to enforce.[/quote]I think the best board layout to enforce is
Maybe 'enforce' is the wrong word, but surely we can agree there may be some kind of best practices?
The only "best" practice is to lay out your board in whatever way is easiest for you to keep track of, make sure no cards in play are hidden, and be flexible enough to let an opponent look at your cards (especially if they ask instead of just getting grabby).
The only "best" practice is to lay out your board in whatever way is easiest for you to keep track of, make sure no cards in play are hidden, and be flexible enough to let an opponent look at your cards (especially if they ask instead of just getting
Ah right, every issue on the internet is a hornet's nest. Sorry I forgot where I was for a minute.
Some board layouts are easier to keep track of than others. I would only arrange all my permanents in, say, an expanding spiral around my library in an attempt to deliberately confuse everything. And yes, because you will say it, some layouts are easier to keep track of for some people than others are for other people. Preferences exist, let's move on. Look at it from the perspective of a new player. Brand new, never played. This is a person who has enough going through their mind learning all the rules, steps, phases, in addition to keeping track of cards. It's more helpful to have some kind of standardized optimal board layout to aid interaction and minimize potential issues than it is to tell them "just keep track of it" or something. I was trying to start a discussion on what that might be.
Ah right, every issue on the internet is a hornet's nest. Sorry I forgot where I was for a minute.Some board layouts are easier to keep track of than others. I would only arrange all my permanents in, say, an expanding spiral around my library in an
Yeah, Minus, OCD much? Just kidding- actually my board layout is pretty much identical to the one you hypothesized as standard. I didn't even consciously consider my library location- it just "feels right" for me.
And, as long as you're respectful of your opponent's needs and requests, that's probably the best layout for anyone: whatever feels right for them.
Yeah, Minus, OCD much? Just kidding- actually my board layout is pretty much identical to the one you hypothesized as standard. I didn't even consciously consider my library location- it just "feels right" for me.And, as long as you're respectful of
So, while watching Magic on Twitch.tv today I stumbled accross a magic match that was a bit odd:
This led me to wonder why people play this way and a place for people to share odd stories about the stuff. I'm interested to hear why.
Because they're freaks. The guy with his stuff turned upside down, I'd just be like, "Dude your stuff is upside down. What's that supposed to mean? Like I'm a ******* moron or something? I need you to turn your cards toward me because I'm a ******* moron who doesn't know what the cards are? Oh I see, you're the smart one here huh? Mr. Smarty McBrain over here huh? Hey everyone come check out the guy with the big brain over here! He's so smart he goes ahead and turns his cards upside down so his backwards-dumb-***-****-of-a-moron opponent can read them and understand them a little better!" Then I'd throw the table over.
The only time I turn my card facing the opponent is if they gain control of my card. Then I turn it and say, "Now we know that you control it" because prior to this Chumlee is reaching his pizza stained fingers at my Elspeth with a goofy smile on his pizza soaked chin like he thinks he's just going to grap hold my Elspeth and that's when I say (from under my hooded cloak- I wear a hooded cloak) "You reach that chubby hand any nearer my Elspeth and you'll be drawing back a bloody nub. And God help you if you get blood on my cards. Jesus Christ himself can walk through that door he ain't going to help you if you get blood on my cards."
As for the "put the lands in front of the other permanents" freaks, they're still living in the past. They're like the Flat Earth Society of MTG. Plus they make me feel like they're up to something. Something sinister. Like they're trying to hide something from me. "here let me put my lands up front so it'll be more difficult for you to notice..." Hello? You're going to be tapping your lands way more consistently than anything else- just put them closer to you and it'll be easier for everyone. But oh no, we can't do that. Got to go with the way-back machine. These people still use faxes and VHS machines, and drive around with 8-track cassette players in their VW Rabbits. Besides overturning the table there's only one thing we can do. Wait for them to die off.
I love this post, this is sort of how I feel about this topic(maybe less vitriolic).
lol just so we're clear I don't really get angry or threaten people or overturn tables or any of that. Not since the restraining orders were issued.
Because they're freaks. The guy with his stuff turned upside down, I'd just be like, "Dude your stuff is upside down. What's that supposed to mean? Like I'm a ******* moron or something? I need you to turn your cards toward me because I'm a ******* m
The only "best" practice is to lay out your board in whatever way is easiest for you to keep track of, make sure no cards in play are hidden, and be flexible enough to let an opponent look at your cards (especially if they ask instead of just getting grabby).
Best practices don't have to be especially complex. I think Minus is going a bit overboard in his description. Despite that, there should be a few basic guidelines where we can say 'If you arrange your board in a manner that contradicts these rules, you have done something wrong'
To that end, I'd put forth these two 'Best Practices':
The location of your graveyard should be such that it cannot be reasonably confused with cards in play.
Your lands should be placed in a manner that allows your opponent to easily see how many lands you have untapped and which (if any) lands with non-mana abilities you control.
Those are the two that I see experienced players violate the most often. There are others like 'Your permanents should be on the table' that I thought were a bit too obvious.
Best practices don't have to be especially complex. I think Minus is going a bit overboard in his description. Despite that, there should be a few basic guidelines where we can say 'If you arrange your board in a manner that contradicts these rules,
I think the library opposite the dominant arm thing is a bit unnecessary. Even though I'm right handed and I play with my library to my left it's for two different reasons. I draw with my left hand and I keep a pad and paper for life totals on my right, to adjust with my right hand. If I drew with my right, I would rather have my library to my right, next to my pad somewhere, to save me reaching across the battlefield every time I drew a card.
Oh, and exiled cards should be kept separately from the graveyard. I see people just turn the card sideways in their graveyard when it's exiled, which to me makes it too easy to get knocked and then confused with the graveyard again.
Cheers
I think the library opposite the dominant arm thing is a bit unnecessary. Even though I'm right handed and I play with my library to my left it's for two different reasons. I draw with my left hand and I keep a pad and paper for life totals on my r
Some board layouts are easier to keep track of than others.
The problem with this idea is that it's only partially correct. This is what it looks like when you complete the thought:
"Some board layouts are easier to keep track of than others for certain people."
Not everybody has an easier time keeping track of the same layout. There is no single layout that is optimized for every single person, and there is no way to make such a layout.
The problem with this idea is that it's only partially correct. This is what it looks like when you complete the thought:"Some board layouts are easier to keep track of than others for certain people."Not everybody has an easier time keeping track of
I handwaived an obvious thing. Who cares? Earlier in the thread people were saying that the root of the "lands in front" preference traces back to a picture in a very old rulebook. Preferences can come about for any reason or no reason. Oftentimes people prefer whatever they first encountered, to hell with any reason, and then they cling to them 'just because', which is a terrible reason to do anything. That's why I handwaived it. I'm suggesting that we put preferences aside completely and come up with a layout that should be best because actual reasons. A long time ago they had a picture in a rulebook. What would the picture look like today if, I don't know, Erik Lauer was asked to come up with some standard layout? Figure out a layout that should do the most good for the most people so new players that have not yet acquired preferences are more likely to have their first encounters be statistically better, and then over time the Magic population will largely conform to it. And occasionally you even meet someone who has an old habit 'just because' and they're actually open to an improvement they hadn't thought about. Not so much among Magic players because they apparently haaaate being told what to do, but it happens.
There are actual reasons for positioning some cards relative others, some of which I speculated on the last page. If my reasoning was wrong, say that. If it doesn't make sense to keep creatures up front because they interact with each other the most, say that. If people don't knock cards off the top of their library into other zones, or if the risk of doing so wouldn't be reduced by positioning the library lateral the supporting arm, say that. If your only argument is "people are different" then what am I supposed to say besides "no ****"??
I handwaived an obvious thing. Who cares? Earlier in the thread people were saying that the root of the "lands in front" preference traces back to a picture in a very old rulebook. Preferences can come about for any reason or no reason. Oftentimes pe
I care because it's relevant. You can't handwave a true fact of reality, no matter how obvious it is, and then construct a new reality as though that fact weren't true. You basically said, "Yes, it's true that everybody's optimal layout looks different, but let's completely ignore that fact and instead make an optimal layout for everybody."
Some of it is preferences, yes. But most of it is because people don't think the same. They have different thought processes and different visual cues that make sense to them.
The problem isn't that my argument is "People are different" and your response is "No kidding", the problem is that my argument is "People are different" and your response is "No kidding, but let's petend they aren't".
I care because it's relevant. You can't handwave a true fact of reality, no matter how obvious it is, and then construct a new reality as though that fact weren't true. You basically said, "Yes, it's true that everybody's optimal layout looks differe
People don't think the same. (handwaive) I handwaive it not because it doesn't matter, but because you throw it up as a a shield without pursuing it further. So how do people think? Is it entirely random? "I like triangle-shaped boards!" "I process fractals!" Or is there often a common thought process new players could be steered towards that is more likely to make more of them better players? Can a standardized board layout streamline gameplay, and would it be enough to be a boon to tournaments? Come on, discuss. Don't just declare that people are different and shut the conversation down.
People don't think the same. (handwaive) I handwaive it not because it doesn't matter, but because you throw it up as a a shield without pursuing it further. So how do people think? Is it entirely random? "I like triangle-shaped boards!" "I process f
The one thing that aggravates me is the exceedingly common tactic of using dice for life. A simple bump of the table changes the life totals completely. It's not even any easier than using pen & paper, as you have to fiddle with the bloody dice to change your life total. Which increases the chances of bumping the dice. If you don't remember the total off-hand, things just get hairy.
The one thing that aggravates me is the exceedingly common tactic of using dice for life. A simple bump of the table changes the life totals completely. It's not even any easier than using pen & paper, as you have to fiddle with the bloody dice to
People'e thought processes are shaped by ideas that require little or no knowledge of the game; based on the individual, they probably have these ideas themselves no matter what you tell them:
"It makes sense to me to show my opponent my cards, since they might have trouble recognizing/reading them upside down"
"It makes sense to me to put every unique card in a seperate pile so I don't lose anything"
"It makes sense to me to put my graveyard over here, because I won't interact with it as much as everything else"
"It makes sense to me to put my deck closer to me, because it has all of the things I want in it"
Not all ideas like this are grounded in actual efficiency; but they all lead to actual efficiency because of the person's mind.
You can try to "steer people towards a certain way of thinking" (also known as manipulation and mind control), but you will probably fail. You cannot stop the number one thought leading to a layout choice, "It makes sense to me".
Why are you so worried about it anyway? Why are you so upset by the endless ways to customize your board? What are other people's weird board layouts doing to hurt you? Just leave it alone and try to fix something that actually matters instead.
People'e thought processes are shaped by ideas that require little or no knowledge of the game; based on the individual, they probably have these ideas themselves no matter what you tell them:"It makes sense to me to show my opponent my cards, since
The one thing that aggravates me is the exceedingly common tactic of using dice for life. A simple bump of the table changes the life totals completely. It's not even any easier than using pen & paper, as you have to fiddle with the bloody dice to change your life total. Which increases the chances of bumping the dice. If you don't remember the total off-hand, things just get hairy.
With spindown life counters, the benefit of not having to have a pad and write manually each change in both life total (in a FNM game, of course) far outweights the risk of hitting the table and not remembering what life you were at. Since it's spindown, often a gentle nudge and your new life total is set. Much less trouble.
At higher levels of play, it's better to have a pad, because you can record all changes in lifetotals and look them up later, of course. Or if there's a lot of excited people in your store that tend to run around.
With spindown life counters, the benefit of not having to have a pad and write manually each change in both life total (in a FNM game, of course) far outweights the risk of hitting the table and not remembering what life you were at. Since it's spind
Those are the two that I see experienced players violate the most often. There are others like 'Your permanents should be on the table' that I thought were a bit too obvious.
Hahah! Nonsense! I keep all of my creatures on the nearest windowsill because Im used to it and it lets me pretend they are all sneaky ninjas who jump out to attack and block! How dare anyone imply that my preferences are unreasonable!!
Hahah! Nonsense! I keep all of my creatures on the nearest windowsill because Im used to it and it lets me pretend they are all sneaky ninjas who jump out to attack and block! How dare anyone imply that my preferences are unreasonable!!
The one thing that aggravates me is the exceedingly common tactic of using dice for life. A simple bump of the table changes the life totals completely. It's not even any easier than using pen & paper, as you have to fiddle with the bloody dice to change your life total. Which increases the chances of bumping the dice. If you don't remember the total off-hand, things just get hairy.
The first and fastest rule of tournament Magic. The player with a paper trail has more power. If somebody is using dice to keep their lifetotal and you've got the paper, then you have the priority if there's a life dispute.
The first and fastest rule of tournament Magic. The player with a paper trail has more power. If somebody is using dice to keep their lifetotal and you've got the paper, then you have the priority if there's a life dispute.
Everyone I've ever played with plays with lands below permanents. This thread is honestly the first time I've ever seen lands played above permanents(I started in '95). Whatever works for you is fine by me, so long as I can clearly see what's what and what's going on.
That said, one of our friends who just started playing this year plays the oddest board layout I've ever seen; he plays with his library smack dab in the middle of his playmat, and randomly lays permanents around it. His GY changes position game to game too.
Only things that bother me are when people don't clearly tap cards that are activating, such as lands for mana. One guy who (thankfully) seldom plays with us never taps his lands for mana; he just puts cards into play from his hand. More than a few times he's spent more mana than his lands produce, due to "forgetting" he already used them. Riiight...
Everyone I've ever played with plays with lands below permanents. This thread is honestly the first time I've ever seen lands played above permanents(I started in '95). Whatever works for you is fine by me, so long as I can clearly see what's what an
Do some reasons trump others? I could say I'm playing with my graveyard in the middle of the battlefield with all my stuff on either side of it because it "makes sense" that my Dredge deck would have the most going on in there, but that reason is trumped by the much better reason of it being a retarded idea. This isn't a competition to come up with some crazy layout and then justify it. What makes the most sense for the most players? What helps the game go smoother for everybody? Edit: Addendum: Is it bad sport to suddenly play a lone enchantment behind my lands when all my other nonland permanents have been played up front? Should intentionally confusing board layouts be considered fair play in competition?
It's a bit of a stretch to accuse me of being "worried", "upset", and "hurt" when what I am is "interested" in game design, human behavior, and math. Should I accuse you of being "afraid" that an official standard would put you in "the wrong"? It's a discussion. Just because we're on the internet doesn't mean we have to be unbearable.
@SereneChaos -Do some reasons trump others? I could say I'm playing with my graveyard in the middle of the battlefield with all my stuff on either side of it because it "makes sense" that my Dredge deck would have the most going on in there, but that
The one thing that aggravates me is the exceedingly common tactic of using dice for life.
That's not a "tactic". Unless one is deliberately bumping the dice or table to change life totals, in which case the tactic is not the dice, the tactic is cheating, and the dice are merely a means to an end.
That's not a "tactic". Unless one is deliberately bumping the dice or table to change life totals, in which case the tactic is not the dice, the tactic is cheating, and the dice are merely a means to an end.
