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5 months ago  ::  Jan 06, 2013 - 4:10PM #51
Coralus
Date Joined: May 22, 2006
Posts: 182
Actually, you may want to read the Secretist, Part One, to discern the identity of who seems to be the Azorius Champion.
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 06, 2013 - 4:14PM #52
Manite
Date Joined: Mar 21, 2012
Posts: 1,109
Let's take a look at the probable card ratios for the set. To spare the scrollbar, I'm putting all the paragraphs and equations in spoiler tags.

Guilds Show
The supposed card count is 156. Using basic math, if each guild gets one new card, let's say the Champions, that's 10 off the bat. Let's assume they each get two monocolored cards, one for each color, and one gold; that's 30 card slots. If they get a Champion and at least three other cards, that's a total of 40 cards, nearly a third of the card slots. It's also probable that each guild gets at least one common, one uncommon, and one rare. A mythic or two for each guild is likely. Each guild is also supposedly getting a unique land, which adds up to another 10. There's a question of whether or not each guild will get an additional artifact to compliment their keyrunes. If they do, these artifacts are likely to be rares to compliment the megacycle of rare artifacts from the first Ravnica block . If so, these could take a rare slot for each guild.

Ral Zarek is highly likely to appear as a Planeswalker, so that's one card for Izzet right there. He'll take up a mythic slot, and assuming each guild gets only one, that means he's the one Izzet mythic for DGM, which means he might end up taking the place of the Izzet Champion provided the Champions are mythic like the Leaders and not rares as they were last time. If the Champions are rare, that reduces the likelihood of rare artifacts for each guild.

Each guild could get two commons, one of each color, for the sake of symmetry. If they also get a land, uncommon, gold or artifact rare, and at least one gold mythic, that's a total of 60 cards associated with guilds, leaving the other 96, roughly two thirds, of the set for guildless.

20 Commons + 10 Uncommons + 10 Rares + 10 Mythic Rares = 60/156

Card Types Show
So, assuming we have 96 cards left, there's also the matter of representing each card type. With few exceptions, almost every set in Magic history has featured at least one creature, enchantment, enchantment - Aura, instant, and sorcery for each color, while the number of artifacts vary. That's five recurring card types that are represented in large number, and assuming each color gets at least one, that's 25 of the 156 cards. In addition, each type is likely to get at least one common and one uncommon card, whereas rares and mythics are more variable. This is a minimum of 50 monocolor cards in total, not taking into account rares.

10 Creatures + 10 Enchantments + 10 Auras + 10 Instants + 10 Sorceries = 50/156

Overlap with guild cards is inevitable, so this and the preceding guild sum do not necesserily add up to 110 yet.

Rarities Show
Let's assume each color also gets at least one rare of any of the aforementioned types.

2 Creatures + 2 Enchantments + 2 Auras + 2 Instants + 2 Sorceries + 1 Rare = 11 cards for each color, adding up to 55 total.

But seeing as small sets get approximately 35 rares and assuming each guild already has one, three rares for each color, adding up to 15, is also reasonable. This results in 13 cards for each color, 65 in total, in addition to at least 10 to 20 multicolor cards and 10 unique lands, adding up to 85-95 cards out of 156.

65 Monocolor + 10-20 Multicolor + 10 Lands = 85/156 to 95/156

Using the maximum, this leaves us with exactly 61 remaining cards. Even at 15 monocolor rares and 10 multicolor or artifact, we only have 25 rares, leaving room for ten more. The safest ratio would be 15 monocolor, 10 multicolor, and 10 artifacts. This gives us 35 rares total.

Rarities II Show
Next are the uncommons. Each color and likely each guild will get at least one, adding up to 15. Small sets usually include roughly 40, allowing room for 25 more. If each guild gets at least two, each color then gets four. 10 x 2 and 5 x 4 each add up to 20, which when doubled equals 40.

10 Mythics + 35 Rares + 40 Uncommons = 85/156

Assuming we have 10 Mythics, 35 Rares, and 40 Uncommons, we have room for 61 commons and 10 basic lands. I don't know if basic lands are slated to appear in DGM, but if they do, there'll likely be two variations of each. As for Commons, we can use the same math we did with Uncommons, but taking into account the greater card count. With the ratio of Uncommons being two for each guild and four for each color, we know the number of commons needs to at least match if not exceed that. So we start with 20 Commons, leaving room for 41 more. If we were to double the ratio, we'd end up with four for each guild and eight for each color, adding up to 80, which is too many, so simple doubling won't work. We can fiddle with the specific numbers, but a sound option would be four for each guild and for each color, adding up to 60.

10 Guilds x 4 Commons = 40, 5 Colors x 4 Commons = 20, 40 Guild Commons + 20 Color Commons = 60

Other Show
But that leaves us with a single card slot. What to do with this slot? Ral Zarek presents a potential problem with the mythic distribution between guilds: If there's only ten mythics and one of them is Ral Zarek, that means the champions can't all be mythics since there would need to be ten of them. But since we have this single card slot left, Ral Zarek can be an odd 11th Mythic, leaving room for 10 mythic champions. This adds up to 156 cards:

11 Mythics + 35 Rares + 40 Uncommons + 60 Commons + 10 Basic Lands = 156/156
1 Mythic, 2 Rares, 2 Uncommons, and 4 Commons for each guild = 9 cards for each guild, 90 cards total
3 Rares, 4 Uncommons, and 4 Commons for each color = 11 cards for each color, 55 cards total

But this leaves one last problem: Artifacts and nonbasic lands. DGM may not be an artifact-focused set but it's sure to have artifacts in it. However, we already allocated all available card slots to guilds and the five colors. So we'll simply have to subtract a few cards from each in our model. If we remove one rare from each color, we get 5 slots for rare guildless artifacts or nonbasic lands, perhaps this block's equivalent of Pillar of the Paruns . We could remove one rare from each guild, ten in total, but they could very well end up being artifacts anyway. There's also the question of common and uncommon artifacts. Presumably, the number of common artifacts will exceed the number of uncommon and likewise for uncommon versus rare.


But a model like this can only estimate so much of a block's card distribution. None of the numbers in these equations are likely 100% accurate, particularly where artifacts are concerned, which is when ambiguity sets in. To sum this whole post up, we can expect approximately 10-11 Mythics, 35 Rares, 40 Uncommons, and 60 Commons plus 10 Basic Lands. Ultimately, we will just have to see what Wizards throws our way.

   
   
   
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 06, 2013 - 4:24PM #53
Eonblueapocalypse1
Date Joined: Dec 17, 2010
Posts: 1,713

Jan 6, 2013 -- 2:24PM, Magicmeow wrote:

Jan 6, 2013 -- 2:03PM, Harmy52 wrote:

What champions can we rule out for returning?



Agrus Kos is dead but a "spirit return" is not out of question. Feather or someone new are also possible though.
Teysa will return, after the guide to gatecrash that's more or less confirmed.
Experiment Kraj is more or less dead - we'll see a new champion for Simic. Maybe a new improved mutant.
Golgari will see a new champion, because both legendary creatures are deceased.
The last gorgon Ludmilla, Jarads son Myczil or someone new are my best bets.

All other champions (Circu, Tolsimir, Tibor/Lumia, Ulasht, Lyzolda) may or may not return. There was a promo art that suggested Tolsimirs return if I recall right. I hope Rakdos new guild champion is Massacre Girl though. =P




Common Bond is the card you are looking for. Although its not really confirmation that Tolsimir Wolfblood will be making a return, since it was mentioned on the Mothership how the art for this card was specifically made for nostalgia.

"I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am all men as I am no man and therefore I am a God."
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 06, 2013 - 4:30PM #54
Strago_Magus
Date Joined: Oct 9, 2009
Posts: 1,059

Jan 6, 2013 -- 4:14PM, Manite wrote:

Ral Zarek is highly likely to appear as a Planeswalker, so that's one card for Izzet right there.



I highly doubt that Zarek will be an Izzet card.  Yes, we all know that he's a part of the Guild, but we also know that he's a plansewalker, which means that it's almost certain that the card will not get a watermark.

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5 months ago  ::  Jan 06, 2013 - 4:39PM #55
Coralus
Date Joined: May 22, 2006
Posts: 182

Jan 6, 2013 -- 4:14PM, Manite wrote:

Let's take a look at the probable card ratios for the set. To spare the scrollbar, I'm putting all the paragraphs and equations in spoiler tags.

Guilds Show

The supposed card count is 156. Using basic math, if each guild gets one new card, let's say the Champions, that's 10 off the bat. Let's assume they each get two monocolored cards, one for each color, and one gold; that's 30 card slots. If they get a Champion and at least three other cards, that's a total of 40 cards, nearly a third of the card slots. It's also probable that each guild gets at least one common, one uncommon, and one rare. A mythic or two for each guild is likely. Each guild is also supposedly getting a unique land, which adds up to another 10. There's a question of whether or not each guild will get an additional artifact to compliment their keyrunes. If they do, these artifacts are likely to be rares to compliment the megacycle of rare artifacts from the first Ravnica block . If so, these could take a rare slot for each guild.

Ral Zarek is highly likely to appear as a Planeswalker, so that's one card for Izzet right there. He'll take up a mythic slot, and assuming each guild gets only one, that means he's the one Izzet mythic for DGM, which means he might end up taking the place of the Izzet Champion provided the Champions are mythic like the Leaders and not rares as they were last time. If the Champions are rare, that reduces the likelihood of rare artifacts for each guild.

Each guild could get two commons, one of each color, for the sake of symmetry. If they also get a land, uncommon, gold or artifact rare, and at least one gold mythic, that's a total of 60 cards associated with guilds, leaving the other 96, roughly two thirds, of the set for guildless.

20 Commons + 10 Uncommons + 10 Rares + 10 Mythic Rares = 60/156

Card Types Show
So, assuming we have 96 cards left, there's also the matter of representing each card type. With few exceptions, almost every set in Magic history has featured at least one creature, enchantment, enchantment - Aura, instant, and sorcery for each color, while the number of artifacts vary. That's five recurring card types that are represented in large number, and assuming each color gets at least one, that's 25 of the 156 cards. In addition, each type is likely to get at least one common and one uncommon card, whereas rares and mythics are more variable. This is a minimum of 50 monocolor cards in total, not taking into account rares.

10 Creatures + 10 Enchantments + 10 Auras + 10 Instants + 10 Sorceries = 50/156

Overlap with guild cards is inevitable, so this and the preceding guild sum do not necesserily add up to 110 yet.

Rarities Show
Let's assume each color also gets at least one rare of any of the aforementioned types.

2 Creatures + 2 Enchantments + 2 Auras + 2 Instants + 2 Sorceries + 1 Rare = 11 cards for each color, adding up to 55 total.

But seeing as small sets get approximately 35 rares and assuming each guild already has one, three rares for each color, adding up to 15, is also reasonable. This results in 13 cards for each color, 65 in total, in addition to at least 10 to 20 multicolor cards and 10 unique lands, adding up to 85-95 cards out of 156.

65 Monocolor + 10-20 Multicolor + 10 Lands = 85/156 to 95/156

Using the maximum, this leaves us with exactly 61 remaining cards. Even at 15 monocolor rares and 10 multicolor or artifact, we only have 25 rares, leaving room for ten more. The safest ratio would be 15 monocolor, 10 multicolor, and 10 artifacts. This gives us 35 rares total.

Rarities II Show
Next are the uncommons. Each color and likely each guild will get at least one, adding up to 15. Small sets usually include roughly 40, allowing room for 25 more. If each guild gets at least two, each color then gets four. 10 x 2 and 5 x 4 each add up to 20, which when doubled equals 40.

10 Mythics + 35 Rares + 40 Uncommons = 85/156

Assuming we have 10 Mythics, 35 Rares, and 40 Uncommons, we have room for 61 commons and 10 basic lands. I don't know if basic lands are slated to appear in DGM, but if they do, there'll likely be two variations of each. As for Commons, we can use the same math we did with Uncommons, but taking into account the greater card count. With the ratio of Uncommons being two for each guild and four for each color, we know the number of commons needs to at least match if not exceed that. So we start with 20 Commons, leaving room for 41 more. If we were to double the ratio, we'd end up with four for each guild and eight for each color, adding up to 80, which is too many, so simple doubling won't work. We can fiddle with the specific numbers, but a sound option would be four for each guild and for each color, adding up to 60.

10 Guilds x 4 Commons = 40, 5 Colors x 4 Commons = 20, 40 Guild Commons + 20 Color Commons = 60

Other Show
But that leaves us with a single card slot. What to do with this slot? Ral Zarek presents a potential problem with the mythic distribution between guilds: If there's only ten mythics and one of them is Ral Zarek, that means the champions can't all be mythics since there would need to be ten of them. But since we have this single card slot left, Ral Zarek can be an odd 11th Mythic, leaving room for 10 mythic champions. This adds up to 156 cards:

11 Mythics + 35 Rares + 40 Uncommons + 60 Commons + 10 Basic Lands = 156/156
1 Mythic, 2 Rares, 2 Uncommons, and 4 Commons for each guild = 9 cards for each guild, 90 cards total
3 Rares, 4 Uncommons, and 4 Commons for each color = 11 cards for each color, 55 cards total

But this leaves one last problem: Artifacts and nonbasic lands. DGM may not be an artifact-focused set but it's sure to have artifacts in it. However, we already allocated all available card slots to guilds and the five colors. So we'll simply have to subtract a few cards from each in our model. If we remove one rare from each color, we get 5 slots for rare guildless artifacts or nonbasic lands, perhaps this block's equivalent of Pillar of the Paruns . We could remove one rare from each guild, ten in total, but they could very well end up being artifacts anyway. There's also the question of common and uncommon artifacts. Presumably, the number of common artifacts will exceed the number of uncommon and likewise for uncommon versus rare.


But a model like this can only estimate so much of a block's card distribution. None of the numbers in these equations are likely 100% accurate, particularly where artifacts are concerned, which is when ambiguity sets in. To sum this whole post up, we can expect approximately 10-11 Mythics, 35 Rares, 40 Uncommons, and 60 Commons plus 10 Basic Lands. Ultimately, we will just have to see what Wizards throws our way.




Personally, I think Ral Zarek will count as the guild champion, this time around. 1 mythic per guild, for a totaly of ten.

Also, for some of your cycles, you're forgetting one major thing. Some cycles are started in Gatecrash, and are finished in DGM, meaning some of your cycles may take only five spots instead of ten. I think the block, to draft better, may use a higher number of hybrid cards, and fewer gold cards. It will be drafted with GTC, and RTR though, so Transguild Promenade is your Pillar of the Paruns this block. I get the feeling the  one leftover card will either be accounted for in the artifacts, or as a five-color rare. We might also want to accepted the potential idea, of split-cards, unless that's been debunked. What if all of the gold instant/sorceries are splits?

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5 months ago  ::  Jan 06, 2013 - 6:35PM #56
Strago_Magus
Date Joined: Oct 9, 2009
Posts: 1,059

Jan 6, 2013 -- 4:14PM, Manite wrote:

To sum this whole post up, we can expect approximately 10-11 Mythics, 35 Rares, 40 Uncommons, and 60 Commons plus 10 Basic Lands. Ultimately, we will just have to see what Wizards throws our way.



Also, there won't be any basic lands.  Small sets do not typically have basic lands.  Mirrodin Besieged and New Phyrexia are exceptions because the basic lands were showing the gradual change of an entire plane.  Nothing like that is happening on Ravnica.  If we're going to see new basic lands this block, we'd see them in Gatecrash, which I also don't think is going to happen considering that Gatecrash will have twenty-five fewer cards in it than Return to Ravnica, and we had twenty-five basic lands this time around instead of the usual twenty.

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5 months ago  ::  Jan 07, 2013 - 10:29AM #57
bay_falconer
Date Joined: Oct 12, 2010
Posts: 9,710

Jan 6, 2013 -- 2:32PM, Catotheyounger wrote:

Experiment kraj wasn't the simic guild leader...




It's kinda cute. Kraj was in the "guild leader" cycle, costing nccdd but having neither its guild's ability nor calling out "green do this, blue do that", while Momir Vig was in the "champion" cycle, calling out "green do this, blue do that", but in the flavor they were reversed.

Jun 27, 2012 -- 12:04AM, GM_Champion wrote:

Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.


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5 months ago  ::  Jan 07, 2013 - 11:13AM #58
Manite
Date Joined: Mar 21, 2012
Posts: 1,109

Jan 6, 2013 -- 6:35PM, Strago_Magus wrote:

Also, there won't be any basic lands.  Small sets do not typically have basic lands.  Mirrodin Besieged and New Phyrexia are exceptions because the basic lands were showing the gradual change of an entire plane.  Nothing like that is happening on Ravnica.  If we're going to see new basic lands this block, we'd see them in Gatecrash, which I also don't think is going to happen considering that Gatecrash will have twenty-five fewer cards in it than Return to Ravnica, and we had twenty-five basic lands this time around instead of the usual twenty.




However, as of the past three blocks (Zendikar, Scars of Mirrodin, Innistrad), the third set did have Basic Lands. Two of them were large sets (Rise of the Eldrazi and Avacyn Restored) but third sets they were. Granted, twenty-five is already a sizeable number, but Innistrad produced thirty lands, Scars produced forty, and Zendikar produced sixty if you count the full art versions. It's worth noting the number crunch leaves room for BLs along with 146 other cards, just one card over the small set "standard" of 145. Dark Ascension was however also larger than usual for a small set at 158, two cards more than what DGM will have, and it indeed did not have any Basic Lands. We'll just have to see.

Jan 7, 2013 -- 10:29AM, bay_falconer wrote:

It's kinda cute. Kraj was in the "guild leader" cycle, costing nccdd but having neither its guild's ability nor calling out "green do this, blue do that", while Momir Vig was in the "champion" cycle, calling out "green do this, blue do that", but in the flavor they were reversed.




Same goes for Augustin and Isperia.


   
   
   
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5 months ago  ::  Jan 08, 2013 - 4:24PM #59
bay_falconer
Date Joined: Oct 12, 2010
Posts: 9,710

Jan 7, 2013 -- 11:13AM, Manite wrote:

Jan 7, 2013 -- 10:29AM, bay_falconer wrote:

It's kinda cute. Kraj was in the "guild leader" cycle, costing nccdd but having neither its guild's ability nor calling out "green do this, blue do that", while Momir Vig was in the "champion" cycle, calling out "green do this, blue do that", but in the flavor they were reversed.




Same goes for Augustin and Isperia.




And now Isperia is the Senate leader (majority leader? prime minister? flavor needs to be worked out). Go figure.

Jun 27, 2012 -- 12:04AM, GM_Champion wrote:

Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.


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