So, if Return to Ravnica and Gatecrash cover all 10 guilds, what will Dragon's Maze consist of? Just random cards with the same mechanics?
All ten guilds are announced to be represented in Dragon's Maze.
Expect new twists on the guild's mechanics, and ten new "guild champions" legendary creatures (this one was heavily hinted at MaRo's tumblr). Also, Ral Zarek UR planeswalker.
The nephilim aren't legendary, and they're also dead, according to the storyline.
they had legendary babies. we need some 4 color legends
If wotc really wants to make a twist I think its reasonable to expect some alliances between guilds and therefore 3 color cards...
Imagine 2 groups of 5 guilds, i dont know how it would work out exactly, but its a possibility.
Shard colors are Esper ( ), Grixis ( ), Naya ( ), Bant ( ), and Jund ( ). These were the focus of Alara.
Wedge colors don't have "official names" but have names given to them by the players.
Wedge colors are Junk ( ), RUG ( ), BUG ( ), America ( ), and I can never remember what the hell people call the ( ) Wedge.
I think in the end it might turn into a complete abolishment of the guilds. Maybe we could expect mono-colour stuff?
Where exactly are people getting the idea that such a thing is going to happen?
One problem is that one guild either hates or respects the others (Gruul) and another is so depraved only Dimir would have anything to do with them (Rakdos). It's hard to imagine proud Boros or hierarchial Orzhov saying "Well we could use some hedonistic and nihilistic demon worshippers to help out with our projects". Although, the Golgari do admit at least one similarity between them and the Rakdos, a shared appreciation of death. And while the Rakdos may hold no power (fear) over the Gruul, that doesn't mean they couldn't somehow work together if events called for it.
Boros is working with the Izzet on the Warmind Initiative, a possible precursor to such mergers or guildpacts. Despite the Boros' rather scathing opinion of Azorius, they at least have a similar enough role in Ravnica that they could make a very effective team. Boros is more likely to work with Gruul than Azorius, though. And Boros is the guild Gruul would most likely cooperate with, if not without tension. Azorius' best friend would probably be Orzhov or Selesnya.
Another snag with the "guilds work together" idea is how to handle tricolor cards; technically, such cards can represent three total guilds even if the intent was to represent just two. A U/R/G Izzet/Simic card could just as easily be an Izzet/Gruul/Simic card. One possible recourse is to emphasize the color shared between two guilds; an Izzet/Simic card can have as its mana cost for example to emphasize the unity between Izzet and Simic. Seeing as there's a total of thirty combinations of A/A/B/C which would really eat up design space, Wizards would likely stick with combinations that focus on the central color of a particular shard or wedge. This is similar to what they did with split cards in the original Ravnica block . This would result in the following combinations:
These remind me a bit of the Nephilim .
If they go three color, they're going to need a lot of mana-fixing to make limited playable.
Perhaps Wizards will name the wedges by mashing together the names of the guilds that comprise them, especially if there is a storyline merger of guilds as well, eg.
the Simesnya Union the Golgarnya Union ()
the Orzdos Pact ()
the Bozorius Militia ()
the Dimiz Alliance the Dimic Alliance ()
the Grugari Rebellion the Grizzet Rebellion ()
... or maybe not. They sounded better in my head.
Either way, there is certainly a huge demand for a wedges set and DGM would be the obvious set to cash in on that demand. Wedge trilands , birds of paradise and maybe even the original fetchlands would be possible inclusions that are bound to shift packs (although it might make more sense to have the fetches in M14). No doubt this would also justify some sort of rare mana stone or new rare multiland , but I hope they don't try to cram in yet another cycle of new rare duals.
Chromatic Lantern is going to go way up in value, mark my words. Hmm, better complete my set while the getting's good.
And because I can't resist splicing the guilds... if DGM were to be a mash-up of the guilds, then maybe their abilities would be also...
- "Bozorius" - common color trait , ie. law and order
New keyword - Suppress (Whenever this creature attacks with two or more creatures, you may tap target creature an opponent controls; that creature doesn't untap during its opponent's next untap step)
- "Orzdos" - common color trait , ie. selfishness
New keyword - Greed (As this permanent enters the battlefield, you may pay one mana of any of its colors; if you do, target player loses 1 life and this permanent enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it)
- "Golgarnya" - common color trait , ie. growth
New keyword - Propagate (To propagate, put a token onto the battlefield that's a copy of a creature token you control, or choose a nontoken creature you control and put a +1/+1 counter on it)
(yes, I know this is a strictly better populate)
- "Grizzet" - common color trait , ie. chaoticness
New keyword - Flare (pay X and discard this card: copy target instant or sorcery spell you control, or the activated ability or triggered ability of a permanent you control; you may choose new targets for the copy)
- "Dimic" - common color trait , ie. manipulation
New keyword - Mutate X (you may pay X and exile this card encoded on a creature you control; if you do, put X +1/+1 counters on that creature; whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player, its controller may remove a +1/+1 counter from it; if he or she does, he may cast a copy of the encoded card without paying its mana cost)
Ravnica's most important defining feature is the two-color guilds.
They wont make wedges out of the guilds.
Now, if we ever get to see Muraganda... Wedges are what I'm hoping for.
It'll probably be all-out war between the guilds, what with the hidden message within the guildgates. It'll still be the ten guilds, though. If they have to fall, it'll be after DMZ.
I would like a wedge set, but not for Ravnica, Ravnica is defined by the Ten guilds. The Ten guilds are what people most associate with Ravnica and are a huge part of what makes it popular (the big city theme being the other fan favorite part). Making the guilds tri-color is stupid, boring, and unimaginative and would prove to be a disaster overall. Plus it would make Standard really boring, a lot of top decks are already tri-color and giving the tri-colors even more fuel would make every deck mid-range. The problem with tri-colors is that it opens the pie so much that every deck runs the same strategy with different color cards. Every tri-color deck would have an equal mix of removal, ramp/mana-fixing, and creatures. Control and aggro would die if they printed Dragon's Maze as a Tri-color set. I believe Dragon's Maze will merely help solidify the current guilds mechanics and give us some more cards for them and maybe introduce some kind of "guild-less" flavor/mechanic to represent those not in the guilds getting fed-up with te guilds shenanigans.
The wedge idea, as awesome as I want it to be, wouldn't really work, especially to anyone who's kept up with the books. Following uses wedges, and shards.
WUB: Considering Azorius and Dimir are two different sides of a coin who cancel each other out, rather than work together: Dead Shard
WUR: Supportable in old Rav. New Rav: not so much. Seems to be VERY Izzet vs. the world
WUG: Supportable, but barely.
WBR:Hah. Rakdos, working alongside Boros? that'll be the day. Dead Wedge
UBR: Seems to be RtR supportable, maybe.
UBG:Heavily suggested in the novels.
URG: Surprisingly, supportable
This is all based off of the guildpact though, when all guilds were interconnected, and their duties worked just as much for everyone else, as themselves. Now, it's a free for all, looking for the ultimate power at the end of the Dragon's Maze... But! Is that everyone's goal?
Let's see... what would I expect from Dragon Maze...
1) Either keyword predition A, or keyword prediction B
A) All keywords from the Return to Ravnica block keywords used by guilds other than what the keyword was printed for, representing the stealing in secrets during all out war.
B) Select reprints from the City of Ravnica block, along with some new applications of the City of Ravnica keywords. The set is old enough that some of the commons and uncommons could use a reprint to stay common or uncommon. Not a lot, maybe... two for each keyword at the common/uncommon level. Any rares can be originals with no reprints, possibly with the Guild Champions where possible.
Most my money is on B, but I leave room for A due to keyword clutter.
2) A two cycles of monocolors supporting multicolor. One with two abilities activated abilties for the allied colors, and one with two abilities for the enemy colors. This could represnent the gateless getting organized, utilizing Guild tactics without Guild predijice.
Now, that's a total of forty cards there... and I have no idea how many cards are in a small set so I'm cutting myself off. Don't really have much else to say anyway.
As for what lies in the heart of the Dragon Maze... probally the key to becoming Ravinca's world spirit. Whatever that means for Ravnica given that it's been different on every plane where such an entity existed... no clue.
Is it just me or do quite a few of the guild keywords (whether its Wedge or Shard) work pretty well when combined...
Bloodlusting a creature then activating its scavenge ability
A creature with Batallion which detains a creature to allow another attacker through
A Cipher spell which gives a creature Extort when encoded would provide for more available mana to extort off of the free spells
A "Detain creature" spell with Overload
A Evolve creature with Populate may allow it to immediately Evolve.
Just a thought...
I've observed that myself. Any two guilds with a shared color should be expected to work at least decently together, but in particular I've noticed a trend where guilds that not only share a color but that also have allied colors as their secondaries in an arc formation (such as Azorius and Simic , forming ) work particularly well together. To wit:
- & : Azorius and Orzhov have some decent control synergy between detaining your opponents' creatures and draining their life little by little.
- & : Boros likes attacking with multiple creatures and Selesnya likes to provide multiple creatures.
- & : Dimir and Izzet both focus on instants and sorceries this time around, and Izzet's support for those spells meshes well with Dimir's Ciphering.
- & : Simic's creatures get bigger when bigger creatures enter the battlefield, and Azorius just so happens to have some asymmetric creatures with detaining ETB effects.
- & : Rakdos' creatures are meant to be swingy, aggressive, and suicidically reckless; Golgari specializes in bringing stuff back from the dead and likes to convert its bodies into counters for your still-living creatures.
- & : Dimir and Orzhov have excellent synergy between Cipher and Extort, especially if played in monoblack.
- & : Attack with cheap weenies and discard fatties to make the weenies not-so-weenie.
- & : Not much synergy to talk about here. Just swing with your Unleash creatures and use Overloaded Mizzium Mortar s to kill any potential blockers or counterattackers dead. An Overloaded Teleportal or two could also help.
- & : Populate big tokens, make bigger Evolvers. Enough said.
- & : Gruul discards creature cards. Golgari could potentially scavenge those cards to put +1/+1 counters on creatures. BRG AgGrow?
I'm also working on a MSE file titled "Guild Mixes" centered around the concept of guild mechanics combining, covering both new and old Ravnica. It consists mostly of monocolored cards that combine two keywords from two guilds that share that color and from the same generation, includes a cycle of Mythic rare enchantments I call Guildpacts that combine four keywords from four shared-color guilds (so far I've only made a cycle for old Ravnica keywords), and features one gold card for each guild that brings its new and old keyword together (Forecast and Detain for Azorius for example). It also has nine tokens, though that number may be subject to change.
That's less about guild, and more about colour synergy, though.
It's why Naya, Jund, Grixis, Bant, and the one I always forget and have to Google - Esper as so potent in magic as colours.
It's be more interesting to see rival colours.
This thread is an abortion.
They have already confirmed from the beginning that Dragon's Maze is a small set, representing all two-colour guilds, including the Guild Champion.
Or you guys could just let the rest have their fun. Dragon's Maze will be out in a few months and then people will have reason to quit speculating about that and instead move on to speculating about the next block for a few months. If you don't like the mash-up/wedge/shard talk, bring up something else to speculate on or leave the topic.
If it weren't for the presence of the already awesome Shocklands, Nimbus Maze would have seemed like a good reprint for Dragon's Maze, as well as (finally) inspiring a cycle or megacycle. Nimbus Maze-style duals would compliment the Shocklands perfectly.
Ive removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_...
Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the Report Post button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
So, what do we know about the Guild Champions? Do any pre-existing ones return? Also, will they have the keyword or not? At first it doesn't seem likely that the champions would have the keywords printed on them, but there is Trostani, Selesnya's Voice . And the extra body with Extort would be pretty sweet for Orzhov.
What champions can we rule out for returning?
Not all would have the keyword. Since they will should all be creatures, cipher and overload wouldn't work, although I guess they could do something like "~ is unblockable as long as it's encoded." and "You may pay instead of the overload cost for spells you control"
Oh yeah, I didn't mean that all guid champions should all have their respective guild keyword, but I could certainly see it working on a couple. Most notably Orzhov, Boros and Selesnya.
Experiment Kraj is definitely dead. That was the Simic guild leader. I'm not familiar enough with Rav story to say who else is dead. Can Agrus Kos return for Boros? He was also the main character last time around, iirc.
Actually, you may want to read the Secretist, Part One, to discern the identity of who seems to be the Azorius Champion.
Let's take a look at the probable card ratios for the set. To spare the scrollbar, I'm putting all the paragraphs and equations in spoiler tags.
The supposed card count is 156. Using basic math, if each guild gets one new card, let's say the Champions, that's 10 off the bat. Let's assume they each get two monocolored cards, one for each color, and one gold; that's 30 card slots. If they get a Champion and at least three other cards, that's a total of 40 cards, nearly a third of the card slots. It's also probable that each guild gets at least one common, one uncommon, and one rare. A mythic or two for each guild is likely. Each guild is also supposedly getting a unique land, which adds up to another 10. There's a question of whether or not each guild will get an additional artifact to compliment their keyrunes. If they do, these artifacts are likely to be rares to compliment the megacycle of rare artifacts from the first Ravnica block . If so, these could take a rare slot for each guild.
Ral Zarek is highly likely to appear as a Planeswalker, so that's one card for Izzet right there. He'll take up a mythic slot, and assuming each guild gets only one, that means he's the one Izzet mythic for DGM, which means he might end up taking the place of the Izzet Champion provided the Champions are mythic like the Leaders and not rares as they were last time. If the Champions are rare, that reduces the likelihood of rare artifacts for each guild.
Each guild could get two commons, one of each color, for the sake of symmetry. If they also get a land, uncommon, gold or artifact rare, and at least one gold mythic, that's a total of 60 cards associated with guilds, leaving the other 96, roughly two thirds, of the set for guildless.
20 Commons + 10 Uncommons + 10 Rares + 10 Mythic Rares = 60/156
Card Types Show
So, assuming we have 96 cards left, there's also the matter of representing each card type. With few exceptions, almost every set in Magic history has featured at least one creature, enchantment, enchantment - Aura, instant, and sorcery for each color, while the number of artifacts vary. That's five recurring card types that are represented in large number, and assuming each color gets at least one, that's 25 of the 156 cards. In addition, each type is likely to get at least one common and one uncommon card, whereas rares and mythics are more variable. This is a minimum of 50 monocolor cards in total, not taking into account rares.
10 Creatures + 10 Enchantments + 10 Auras + 10 Instants + 10 Sorceries = 50/156
Overlap with guild cards is inevitable, so this and the preceding guild sum do not necesserily add up to 110 yet.
Let's assume each color also gets at least one rare of any of the aforementioned types.
2 Creatures + 2 Enchantments + 2 Auras + 2 Instants + 2 Sorceries + 1 Rare = 11 cards for each color, adding up to 55 total.
But seeing as small sets get approximately 35 rares and assuming each guild already has one, three rares for each color, adding up to 15, is also reasonable. This results in 13 cards for each color, 65 in total, in addition to at least 10 to 20 multicolor cards and 10 unique lands, adding up to 85-95 cards out of 156.
65 Monocolor + 10-20 Multicolor + 10 Lands = 85/156 to 95/156
Using the maximum, this leaves us with exactly 61 remaining cards. Even at 15 monocolor rares and 10 multicolor or artifact, we only have 25 rares, leaving room for ten more. The safest ratio would be 15 monocolor, 10 multicolor, and 10 artifacts. This gives us 35 rares total.
Rarities II Show
Next are the uncommons. Each color and likely each guild will get at least one, adding up to 15. Small sets usually include roughly 40, allowing room for 25 more. If each guild gets at least two, each color then gets four. 10 x 2 and 5 x 4 each add up to 20, which when doubled equals 40.
10 Mythics + 35 Rares + 40 Uncommons = 85/156
Assuming we have 10 Mythics, 35 Rares, and 40 Uncommons, we have room for 61 commons and 10 basic lands. I don't know if basic lands are slated to appear in DGM, but if they do, there'll likely be two variations of each. As for Commons, we can use the same math we did with Uncommons, but taking into account the greater card count. With the ratio of Uncommons being two for each guild and four for each color, we know the number of commons needs to at least match if not exceed that. So we start with 20 Commons, leaving room for 41 more. If we were to double the ratio, we'd end up with four for each guild and eight for each color, adding up to 80, which is too many, so simple doubling won't work. We can fiddle with the specific numbers, but a sound option would be four for each guild and for each color, adding up to 60.
10 Guilds x 4 Commons = 40, 5 Colors x 4 Commons = 20, 40 Guild Commons + 20 Color Commons = 60
But that leaves us with a single card slot. What to do with this slot? Ral Zarek presents a potential problem with the mythic distribution between guilds: If there's only ten mythics and one of them is Ral Zarek, that means the champions can't all be mythics since there would need to be ten of them. But since we have this single card slot left, Ral Zarek can be an odd 11th Mythic, leaving room for 10 mythic champions. This adds up to 156 cards:
11 Mythics + 35 Rares + 40 Uncommons + 60 Commons + 10 Basic Lands = 156/156
1 Mythic, 2 Rares, 2 Uncommons, and 4 Commons for each guild = 9 cards for each guild, 90 cards total
3 Rares, 4 Uncommons, and 4 Commons for each color = 11 cards for each color, 55 cards total
But this leaves one last problem: Artifacts and nonbasic lands. DGM may not be an artifact-focused set but it's sure to have artifacts in it. However, we already allocated all available card slots to guilds and the five colors. So we'll simply have to subtract a few cards from each in our model. If we remove one rare from each color, we get 5 slots for rare guildless artifacts or nonbasic lands, perhaps this block's equivalent of Pillar of the Paruns . We could remove one rare from each guild, ten in total, but they could very well end up being artifacts anyway. There's also the question of common and uncommon artifacts. Presumably, the number of common artifacts will exceed the number of uncommon and likewise for uncommon versus rare.
But a model like this can only estimate so much of a block's card distribution. None of the numbers in these equations are likely 100% accurate, particularly where artifacts are concerned, which is when ambiguity sets in. To sum this whole post up, we can expect approximately 10-11 Mythics, 35 Rares, 40 Uncommons, and 60 Commons plus 10 Basic Lands. Ultimately, we will just have to see what Wizards throws our way.
Post Your Reply
Please login to post a reply.