Does Vesuvan Doppelganger's ability concerning its color work as advertised ?
Color is a derived characteristic, which means it gets determined by one of the following four: - Mana Cost - Color Indicator - Characteristic-defining abilities - Color changing effects (these are not copied, so let's ignore them for now)
The copy rules make exceptions for this case, so that the color indicator is not copied, and neither are color-setting characteristic-defining abilities.
706.9b Some copy effects specifically state that they don't copy certain characteristics and instead retain their original values. These effects use the phrase "except its [characteristic] is still [value]" or "except it's still [value(s)]." They may also simply state that certain characteristics are not copied.
706.9d When applying a copy effect that doesn't copy a certain characteristic, retains an original value for a certain characteristic, or modifies the final value of a certain characteristic, any characteristic-defining ability (see rule 604.3) of the object being copied that defines that characteristic is not copied. If that characteristic is color, any color indicator (see rule 204) of that object is also not copied.
However, they change nothing about the fact that color is derived from mana cost, and as such, the new color will be the colors used in that mana cost.
So, in my opinion,
If a Vesuvan Doppelganger copies a Crazed Goblin, it will be red. (red mana cost) If a Vesuvan Doppelganger copies a Crimson Kobolds, it will be colorless. (colorless mana cost, and the color indicator is not copied) If a Vesuvan Doppelganger copies a creature with a characteristic-defining color-setting ability (are there any ?), it will be the color of that card's mana cost. (because the characteristic-defining color-setting ability is not copied)
Proposed fix:
Append to the rule that color is no longer derived from mana cost in this case. or Reword the doppelganger so it actually sets the color to whatever color it was right before it became that copy. (Both when entering the battlefield, and when resolving its triggered ability). Other, similarly worded cards would need errata as well.
In my opinion, color can and should not actually be a copiable value, because it is a derived characteristic. Copying it is meaningless, because it will be 'redetermined' based on the new mana cost.
It would make just as much sense to have a copy not retain the converted mana cost (another derived characteristic) of the card even though it changed mana cost, namely, no sense at all.
If a Vesuvan Doppelganger copies a creature with a characteristic-defining color-setting ability (are there any ?), it will be the color of that card's mana cost. (because the characteristic-definign color-setting ability is not copied)
Append to the rule that color is no longer derived from mana cost in this case.
I think this is the best option so far depending on how it'd be defined. I think it should be defined so that colors would be granted as part of that copy process based on the mana cost, color indicator the object had right before applying that copy effect. (but not derived from color setting CDAs)
or
Reword the doppelganger so it actually sets the color to whatever color it was right before it became that copy. (Both when entering the battlefield, and when resolving its triggered ability). Other, similarly worded cards would need errata as well.
This would make it "color-copy" the colors gained from other effects. Also, if in response to Vesuvan Doppelganger's ability we use Cytoshape to make it a copy of Alloy Golem , it would retain the chosen color when it should be colorless as it would be currently.
A third option may be to have the color indicator an "invisible" printed value for all card-faces who don't have it printed. And we derive what color indicator is "printed" using the printed mana cost, but after that it would no longer depend on the mana cost. So Vesuvan Doppelganger would have its own color indicator it retains after copying another creature.
In my opinion, color can and should not actually be a copiable value, because it is a derived characteristic. Copying it is meaningless, because it will be 'redetermined' based on the new mana cost.
It would make just as much sense to have a copy not retain the converted mana cost (another derived characteristic) of the card even though it changed mana cost, namely, no sense at all.
The is some point there. Having VD retain its mana cost would make it comply with how colors are derived. But then again, we have cards that care about the converted mana cost or about mana symbols, and as VD is printed, it wants its originally-derived characteristic but not its mana cost, as counter intuitive as it may sound.
Append to the rule that color is no longer derived from mana cost in this case.
I think this is the best option so far depending on how it'd be defined. I think it should be defined so that colors would be granted as part of that copy process based on the mana cost, color indicator the object had right before applying that copy effect. (but not derived from color setting CDAs)
Wait. Isn't this basically how it currently works? Basically, deriving all the characteristics happens once before applying any of the layers*, (edit: not including color-setting CDAs that happen in layer 5), so we don't derive Vesuvan Doppelganger's colors again after its mana cost changes. However, it may be a good idea to clarify this in the rules.
Edit2: Hey, this is what 613.1 says:
613.1. The values of an object's characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. For a card, that means the values of the characteristics printed on that card. For a token or a copy of a spell or card, that means the values of the characteristics defined by the effect that created it. Then all applicable continuous effects are applied in a series of layers in the following order:
* (When we apply text-changing effects in layer 3, we only modify abilities from the changed text, we don't rederive them. Also, the way copy effects work, they add up both the text and the abilities that were derived from it, tying them together, we don't derive those abilities from the copied text again.)
Yeah... Until next game, where it'll be right back.
Seriously, there's no way to deal with Rancor in any format. It should be banned, except Gleemax is a lobbyist for the Rancor party, so that'll never happen.
You can't ban rancor, it just returns to your deck.
You might want to actually talk to the Flavor & Storyline Board people... since, you know, our whole reason for playing Magic is the flavor. I'm willing to bet you'll get a lot more interest there than in General.
Indeed, both posters down there would be thrilled.
When talks about banning Jace first started, I was thinking that I would see him banned come June 20th. But as I think more about it, I don't really think that Jace is the problem anymore. Sure his power level leaves very little to the imagination (opening Jace is like opening a refrigerator box with a naked girl on the inside), and sure his price does have a strong impact on what players choose to play (playing Jace is like being intimate with a woman and she doesn't charge you in the morning), but it is not the source of all the problems in Standard.
How do people think saving room to print more abilities on cards is dumbing down the game?
Do you really think, say, Akroma would ever be printed if she said, "Akroma can block by creatures with this ability and cannot be blocked by creatures without this ability. If a creature without this ability would deal combat damage by Akroma would be destroyed, prevent all combat damage that creature would deal to Akroma this combat. Attacking does not cause Akroma to tap. If Akroma is blocked and deals lethal damage, it deals the remainder of its damage to the defending player. Akroma may attack and use abilities that require tapping in the casting cost the turn it enters the battlefield. Akroma cannot be damaged, enchanted, equipped, blocked or targeted by black or red sources" rather than her "dumbed down" wording she has? No freaking way. Keywording and shorthand allows them to make complicated cards easy to play with, allowing them to be printed in the first place.
1. cast frankie peanuts 2. ask opponent "will you concede the game this turn"? if they say yes, you win; if they say no, play a staying power 3. subsequently ask "will you attack this turn"? and "will you cast a spell this turn"? (using a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir for the second question if necessary) to ensure they can't disrupt the combo 4. donate them a platinum angel 5. play a mox lotus and braingeyser them for every card in their library. play an opalescence and donate them a glorious anthem and a blacker lotus , then play enchanted evening . play and activate a mindslaver and then donate them a fastbond and the mox lotus (returning one of the donates to your hand with eternal witness or whatever) 6. during their turn, play every permanent in their hand (playing lands with fastbond) then (as yourself) cast mirrorweave on the blacker lotus, so every permanent becomes a copy of it. proceed to tear up every card they control, and hopefully do it before they notice that they aren't bound by staying power's ability anymore and can concede
Dark Ritual being overpowered is determined more by what is done with it than the card itself.
True, but the fact that it enables so many ridiculous things is pretty telling. It's like, sure I can use a shotgun as a bludgeoning instrument, but that doesn't make it not a shotgun.
Shortly before Serra died, she transferred her spark into an angel whose full name was Asha Avacyn Bolas. Her dragon father groomed her for her positions in Alara and Innistrad, and she's also been getting help from her uncle Ugin in the form of Urza, who was resurrected as Marit Lage to be the avatar as which she projects herself into material realms. Grieslbrand is a split personality who sometimes wanders the planes disguised as a human woman named Liliana Vess.
Everyone's life would be easier if players would, instead of coming to the 'net for help with a deck, just netdeck and be done with it. And I'm not talking about some Top 8 lists, for the Casualists, too, can benefit from netdecking. I've netdecked plenty of decks from the Casual Play forums from users such as Mown, Raedien, Floopfoot, and a few others. I snatched straight the heck out of my web browser. Yes, people, your original idea fell victim to a savage netdecker. You have been assimiliated.
Suppose I wanted a Zombie deck. Why on earth would I spend time searching Gatherer for a decent list of Zombie cards when Raedien already did it for me? Taking time to be creative or waiting on people on the forums to tell you why your deck sucks or 'go to Casual forums' is a disasterous waste of time (to me).
That being said, Magic was ruined back in Alpha when they added all that rules and cards [Debutantes avert your eyes]. My friends and I still like playing it the "pure" way (Basically we go into the woods and hit eachother with wiffle bats while shouting made up obscenities. You know, the way Garfield wanted it to be played).
Don't worry about it. I've come up with a list of changes to fix EDH.
-First off, there's no commander. -The minimum deck size is 60 cards, and each deck can have up to four of each card, save basic lands and relentless rats. Also decks have no color identity. -Starting life total is 20.
Here's a clever play you can try yourself: -Convince friend to run relentless rats.dec in legacy tournament -Get a deck with lots of mill, yixlid jailer, and humility -Drop humility and jailer, wait for him to dump his hand, mill him out -All his rats now have no abilities. Call a judge because he's playing an illegal deck with more than 4 of a single card. -Get him/her banned from competitive magic play
L, is for the leather gloves you weaaaar. O, is for the organs that guy could spaaaare. V, is very very, extraordinay. E, is for every vagrant i butchered in a wine cellar befooooore.
The outer layer of the Magic: the Gathering box, the carton, or crust, is fairly thin and light, and contains largely aluminosilcates.
Within that lies the middle layer, consisting of the familiar booster pack. Although solid, the booster packs' high temperatures allow them to acutally move around within the booster box. This flow, sometimes called convection, is cited by frustrated box mappers as one of WOTC's most genious uses of thermodynamics since the Ravnica block.
No one knows what lies at the core of the booster box, but scientists theorize that it must be especially dense in order to make up for the large amount of fluff distributed amongst the booster packs.
I imagine [Ajani 3's] second ability involves him hurling the creature at your opponent Brion Stoutarm style, then the guy is just like "Okay, that may have worked, but don't- GOD DAMN IT!" as he does it again because cats don't give a **** :33.
Its like that one time Elves broke out in a field of Jund. Elves became a resurgent hit, then died off again once Jund adapted to the rest of the field of G/W that it required mass removal that inherently pooped on Elves too.
Submit to the menace. Delver can, and will blot out the sun.
"I remember my days as a youth at Tolarian Academy ." "Wow, small multiverse, I actually went there too." "WAIT, DON'T- Well ****, there's $200,000 in student loans well spent."
And flavor goes out the window when you cast a second copy of a planeswalker right after the first one dies, so...
"Hey Nissa, I need a favor." "You just asked me for a 'favor' like thirty seconds ago, and it turned out to be having Sarkhan Transmogrify my only follower into a dragon like 5 times -which dickery aside also violates some laws of causality - and then you let me get beaten over the head by that hedron crab." "...I'll give you " "...Well all right then."
GM, I don't think Dill is better than you. I KNOW it. Even if he wakes up every morning, clubs a baby seal, steals all the TV remotes from within a block's radius of his house and then robs hungry orphans of their food he'd be better than you, for the simple reason that he learns from his mistakes.
What would they have to fight about? Like, all I can think of now is Gideon going "Hey, long-ears! I'm gathering a group of 'Walkers together to fight some tentacle monsters.....you want in?" and Tamiyo going "Ew! Hentai no bakka Gideon-desu desu!" and flying away.
I open 4 packs just to be on the safe side. Not only do I get more cards than everyone else, but I also get to spend the rest of the night off. Win Win.
MaRo has a thing for people opening boosters with bad cards. But since he can only get so many bad cards printed in each set, he has found a devious way of getting more bad cards into circulation: He makes entire print sheets with just bad rares, then puts them onto the assembly line. He proceeds to wring his hands and twirl his evil mustache that he grew for twirling purposes as a lightning bolt strikes in the background. Afterwards, he goes to make sure that the good cards are only opened by everyone's friends, and that we all only get to open bad cards. He does this by memorising each booster, than switching them around accordingly. Whenever someone complains about a card, he immediately jumps out from behind a chair to yell "WELL, IT'S NOT FOR YOU!" before merging back into the shadows in order to devise new ways in which he can screw over players, then claim that he has valid reasons for doing so.
Mark Rosewater is sitting in a seemingly innocuous cable TV van, outside of Bankaimastery's house. Sitting nearby are two hardened criminal hackers, fresh out of prison, and filled with resentment at their lack of physical fitness. "Have you managed to hack his brainwaves yet? The set deadline's coming up fast." "We're almost through. It should be coming up on the screen any second." The hacker presses a button, and Kevin's thoughts flash onto the screen. Mark and the hackers stare in amazement at the sheer beauty, the elegance, and the raw truth of what they see. It's like the ending to 2001: A Space Odyssey. Brilliant light shines across the screen, the truth of existence is made clear to them, and they despair at their own foolishness, their own ignorance, their own inadequacy. And then they steal his ideas. As they return back to R&D, Mark sneers at a haggard old man chained to a cast-iron sphere. The man looks up from his laborious task of breaking rocks in the dungeon of Wizards of the Coast headquarters, and asks a question: "Kevin, my greatest student. He - he's all right, isn't he? You didn't hurt him?" Mark deals him a weighty blow with his boot. "Know your place, Richard. Get back to work."
I'm only opposed to it because it bears so little relation to how people actually play the game. The example of Miracles is actually a much better one then the Clone example I was trying to use.
From the game's perspective, the card can move instantly from face down in the library to revealed in the hand and that's fine for the rules. But in real life, we can't actually do that, so the card spends a good bit of time in locations that are neither where that player's library is nor where that player's hand is. And that's fine for real life. What I don't want is the disconnect to be explicitly codified. Along the lines of
183664.697 A game of Magic as laid out by these rules exists only as a pure Platonic ideal, utterly unrealizable by fallible mortals limited by the confines of physicality and the ravages of evil and sin.
183664.698 The cake is a lie, too.
I know it's true, but I don't want the rules to actually straight-up tell me that.
Pfft this cant be serious can it? If it is please delete your account OP. Its not even close to ban worthy, considering what JTMS and stoneforge had to accomplish to get banned i see the WotC selling magic to aquire Pokemon before that ever happens.
I'm trying to imagine sorin markov as a gym leader in one of those pokemon games which you have to beat him to get his badge... somehow I imagine that he would stab you in the chest with his sword before giving you the badge, even if you beat his pokemon....
Personally, I'd be fine with tea time but then I'm not gonna waste the mana summoning Emrakul, the Aeons Torn . He always takes all the sugar, drinks the whole pot of Earl Grey and doesn't even say thank you. SO. RUDE.
Break the Card is a regular thread in the Cards and Combo Forum. Quite simply, the participants are given a Johnnystatic card (e.g. Xenograft ) and are asked to build a deck around it. The winner and honorable mentions are sigged below. Get brewing!
This week's Break the Card was based around Xenograft . Thread : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27681049/Break_the_card_:_Xenograft?pg=1
Winner : Axterix with his Vampdrazi deck. Finalist : Vektor480 with his Ally/Golem/Plant deck. Honorable mentions : Zammm for the Turntimber Ranger combo and TinGorilla for suggesting Sarkhan the Mad .
Here's the link to the Mindlock Orb contest : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27697565/Break_the_Card_:_Mindlock_Orb?sdb=1&pg=last#497536269
Here's the link to Break the Card : Bludgeon Brawl : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27715169/Break_the_Card_:_Bludgeon_Brawl?sdb=1&pg=last#498208797
Winner : Vektor and his Grab the World deck. Finalist : Crandor with his Awesome Aliteration deck. Honorable mentions : RP Jesus with his Wat deck and Zix200 with his Signet Renewal deck.
This week was Followed Footsteps : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27748677/Break_the_Card_:_Followed_Footsteps?pg=1
Winner : Tevish_Szat with his Exponential Growth deck. Honorable mentions : Zix with his Carbon Copies deck and Escef with his Fungus of Speed and Time deck.
This week's card was Jace's Archivist : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28063377/Break_the_Card_:_Jaces_Archivist.
Finalists : Jentaru with his "Consecration of the Draw" deck and HereticSmitty with his "ADHD: The deck" deck. Winner : JaxsonBateman with his "The Archives Are Endless!" deck.
706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object's characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The "copiable values" are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, expansion symbol, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by "as . . . enters the battlefield" and "as . . . is turned face up" abilities that set characteristics, and by abilities that caused the object to be face down. Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied.
706.2a A copy acquires the color of the object it's copying because that value is derived from its mana cost or color indicator. A copy acquires the abilities of the object it's copying because those values are derived from its rules text. A copy doesn't wind up with two values of each ability (that is, it doesn't copy the object's abilities and its rules text, then have that rules text define a new set of abilities).So we start with a
Vesuvan Doppelganger 3UU Creature - Shapeshifter You may have Vesuvan Doppelganger enter the battlefield as a copy of any creature on the battlefield except it doesn't copy that creature's color and it gains "At the beginning of your upkeep, you may have this creature become a copy of target creature except it doesn't copy that creature's color. If you do, this creature gains this ability." 0/0
Copy effects are applied (let's say it copies a Crazed Goblin)
Crazed Goblin R Creature - Goblin Warrior This creature attacks each turn if able. At the beginning of your upkeep, you may have this creature become a copy of target creature except it doesn't copy that creature's color. If you do, this creature gains this ability. 1/1
The above rule now makes it red. Nothing stops this. The color clause basically does nothing here. This is also the reason why Clone does not remain blue (which is intended, but not for doppelganger)
Potential solution: You may have Vesuvan Doppelganger enter the battlefield as a copy of any creature on the battlefield except it's blue and it gains "At the beginning of your upkeep, you may have this creature become a copy of target creature except it's blue. If you do, this creature gains this ability."
I think the way that it is suppose to work is that cards copyable characteristics are those characteristics that are those that are derived from a object's printed text. This means that a cards mana cost is a copyable characteristic, as is it's colour as both are derived from a object's printed text. However, as Soular, pointed out nowhere does it says that you rederive a objects characteristics at every level. Instead the rules say that you start with the characteristics given by the object's printed text and then apply each layers effects. So when you apply the doppelgangers effect you will change the mana cost but not the color of the object. This is similar to how both rules text and ability text are copyable characteristics but you do not copy both then derive a second set of abilities from the object's rules text. However I'm not sure how this interacts with text changing effects.
613.1. The values of an object's characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. For a card, that means the values of the characteristics printed on that card. For a token or a copy of a spell or card, that means the values of the characteristics defined by the effect that created it. Then all applicable continuous effects are applied in a series of layers in the following order:
613.1a Layer 1: Copy effects are applied. See rule 706, "Copying Objects."
If it's true that you don't rederive the color of Vesuvan Doppelganger after applying the copy effect, then no copy effects should affect the color of a permanent because you always derive the color from the original mana cost before applying the copy effect. Mana cost and color indicator are copiable values, but color is not. Therefore color must be derived after the copy effect takes place.
706.2a A copy acquires the color of the object it's copying because that value is derived from its mana cost or color indicator. A copy acquires the abilities of the object it's copying because those values are derived from its rules text. A copy doesn't wind up with two values of each ability (that is, it doesn't copy the object's abilities and its rules text, then have that rules text define a new set of abilities).
This rule seems ambiguous. What is it referring to with "derived from its [text]"? Is it the text of the copy or the text of the original object?
706.2 says that it acquires the object's characteristics as derived from the object's text. Here's the relevant part:
706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object's characteristics ... The "copiable values" are the values derived from the text printed on the object ...
So it makes sense that 706.2a is also talking about abilities and colors derived from the object's text. So what it really does is tying up the abilities with their text.
However, if rule 706.2a really means that colors and abilities are derived from the copy's text, then you're right. In that case, maybe we can follow your first suggestion and patch up rule 706.2a and/or rule 706.9d (copy exceptions) to prevent the color from being rederived from the mana cost.
as Soular, pointed out nowhere does it says that you rederive a objects characteristics at every level. Instead the rules say that you start with the characteristics given by the object's printed text and then apply each layers effects. So when you apply the doppelgangers effect you will change the mana cost but not the color of the object.
This is how I think it works, but it really depends on how rule 706.2a should be interpreted. This is how it works at first:
First we take VD with only its text and no other characteristics, this means no color an no abilities yet.
Following rule 613.1, we derive characteristics from its text, making it blue and giving it abilities that correspond with its text.
Next, it depends on our interpretation of 706.2 and 706.2a.
If abilities and colors are copied directly, the process goes like this: 3. The copy-effect applies in layer 1. We take all the copiable characteristics from the object as it looked like when it was copied, this includes color and abilities. We replace all of VD's characteristics with those characteristics, except that we don't copy the color-indicator part of the object's text and we don't copy the color of that object. In this process VD also gains a copy of its own ability.
But, if abilities and colors are not copied directly, the process is divided in two: 3. The copy-effect applies in layer 1:
We change VD's text to be the copiable text and the copiable-abilities the object had when it was copied (but not colors an no abilities that derive from the text). In this process VD also gains a copy of its own ability.
Then we rederive abilities and color from VD's new text. (We want an exception to prevent color from being rederived here and stick with whatever was derived before)
However I'm not sure how this interacts with text changing effects.
Unfortunatly I can't find anywhere in the rules where it explains what exactly happens to the abilities themselves when their text is changed. But because it is important to keep the identity of the ability for some cases (like in activated abilities that only allow activating them a number of times), it's more likely that the ability is not deleted and recreated but rather it's modified. I think it'd be worth to add an explanation in rule 612 (the rule for Text-Changing Effects).
Potential solution: You may have Vesuvan Doppelganger enter the battlefield as a copy of any creature on the battlefield except it's blue and it gains "At the beginning of your upkeep, you may have this creature become a copy of target creature except it's blue. If you do, this creature gains this ability."
This would be a functional change that doesn't comply with its printed text: 1. It will be open for text changing effects 2. If you make it a copy of a creature with Cytoshape while its ability is on the stack, it should retain the colors of the first creature it copied.
But for the sake of making it work, if actually needed, this may or may not be minor.
If it's true that you don't rederive the color of Vesuvan Doppelganger after applying the copy effect, then no copy effects should affect the color of a permanent because you always derive the color from the original mana cost before applying the copy effect. Mana cost and color indicator are copiable values, but color is not. Therefore color must be derived after the copy effect takes place.
It depends on what's the meaning of the "its" in rule 706.2a. But if we say that colors and abilities are also copied along with the text, when something copies an object, it will directly copy its colors so it doesn't need to derive it from its mana cost and color indicator.
TL;DR @blizzard: depending on how we interpret 706.2a, either you're right and colors are derived later, or colors are actually directly copied and there's no problem (beside clarity, perhaps). @MJ: see my answer to blizzard. As for text-changing effects, to keep the identity of the ability they probably only modify it. @adeyke: text-changing effect and Cytoshape tricks can make your proposal casue a functional change. @fezz: if we copy colors directly, then there's no need to rederive them. So copying will still work properly.
: Regenerate.
