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5 months ago ::
Dec 31, 2012 - 7:30PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Dec 31, 2012
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I hate being mana screwed. By mana screw I mean missing a land/mana drop during the first 2-4 turns of the game. I feel this is poor mechanic and here are 3 reasons why. It adds harmful variance to the game. Essentially the mana screw mechanic is roughly equivalent to rolling a 20-sided die before a game begins, if you get 20 or 19 you lose, otherwise you can actually play the game. The reason the mana screw is such a bad mechanic, is that it prevents the player from taking any action and also removes interaction between players. It's not fun. Not being able to take any action in the early game simple because of random chance, is not an enjoyable experience. Losing because you had to mulligan down to 4 because you didn't get any lands in your draws is an incredibly frustrating. It punishes bad/new players more then it punishes good players. Given the same deck, a new player is going to have a harder time playing a low land hand than a good player. This disadvantage is exaggerated further when you consider a deck a new/bad player builds compared to a good player. All in all it means that new/bad player loses more games due to mana screw compared to good players. Edit: Read further on why we should care about bad/new players. This is a counter argument to some of the "benefits" of mana screw. The Solution:At the start of a game you select up to 3 basic lands from your deck and reveal them to your opponent. These lands are considered your "Starting Territory" and make up the beginning of your hand. After you pick your Starting Territory you then draw the rest of your hand from your deck. If you should mulligan, you still draw one less card, but the first few cards would always be your "Starting Territory." Example: I pick a Swamp and a Plains as my Starting Territory. I then draw 5 more cards to create my first hand of 7 cards (the 2 cards that make up my starting territory count towards the hand size. If I decide to mulligan, then I set aside the 2 lands, reshuffle the rest of my hand and draw 4 cards. Essentially your starting territory places a lower limit on the mulligan and ensures that at least some of your cards are basic lands. For tournaments, the starting territory would be set at signup and could not vary between matches. Possible problems with this solutions:
- 4 might be too high. It might need to be changed to 3.
- It might be ok to vary which lands you want between matches.
- It could be to abusive in legacy. I don't believe it will, I think worst case it would make some decks more consistently powerful, but it would not enable any drastically new decks.
- 1cc and 2 cc creature are devalued. Below is why is are some resons why I think that this would not be a problem.
What do you think? Terrible idea? If so what problems do you think it would create? Edit: Plenty of fair points made, here are my replies. Why should we care about bad/new players?This was in response to an article by Mark Rosewater on Mana Screw, specifically to the “It allows anyone the chance to win/It allows anyone the chance to lose” reasons cited in that article. My counter-argument is that mana screw does not actually accomplish those things. Magic is about variance.This is true. My solution however, does not eliminate variance, but reduces what I consider negative variance. Every card but your starting territory is still random. The only thing that has been eliminated is auto losing a game because you can’t cast anything during the first few turns of the game. This negatively affects Deck Construction.Not at all, I believe that it actually shifts some of the emphasis of deck construction away from rote mathematical mana curve towards preparing for the meta-game. Cheap Creatures are devalued.I believe this is somewhat true, however I feel like there are substantial gains that I will go into below. I would never put lands in the deck!!You definitely would, but let me explain how I feel this change would affect the state of the game. First, I think up to 3 lands is safer than 4, so my arguments will be based on starting territory with up to 3 lands. The simple approach would be to build a deck that only needs the starting territory and not add any more lands. This however greatly limits your deck to a few colors and splash-able spells thereby making your deck weaker and less versatile. Furthermore, you open yourself up to crippling mana denial strategies, so even aggressive decks would still have to dedicate some of their cards to lands or risk losing to a few Craterize/Stone Rain or Wastelands. I imagine that an aggressive deck with some land destruction would probably be the first powerful deck under this change. However this type of deck could be combated by cheap tempo, early mana/hand disruption, bounces/stall tactics or just any deck that packs more lands than the initial starting territory. Decks would have to ensure that they had something to do during the early game, so while 1cc and 2cc creatures may be devalued, 1cc and 2cc spells would actually increase in value. I net result is that the meta-game would change but remain just as if not more exciting than it is currently. I believe this change would slightly increase the cards we consider tournament worthy, since low casting spells become more important and decks now have more room to dedicate to things that aren’t lands.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 31, 2012 - 7:34PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Mar 23, 2006
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if your deck can function on 4 or fewer lands, you literally don't need to run any more lands. I can run 56 burn spells and 4 mountains and be guaranteed to draw gas every turn for the entire game. 
120.6. Some effects replace card draws.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 31, 2012 - 8:09PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Aug 20, 2008
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And here I thought the best way to eliminate mana screw would be to put mana symbols on the bottoms of the cards, upside down, so that they could be played upside down as basic lands.
Like in Duel Masters.
Coming up with weird ideas to make everyone happy since 2008! I have now started a blog as an appropriate place to put my crazy ideas.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 31, 2012 - 8:15PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jul 27, 2011
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It actually takes immense creativity to eliminate mana screw simply because there are decks that do not actually need lands even.
I think your suggestion would work in Standard, but in eternal formats like legacy/modern, it's not doable because for the right combo decks for instance, it'd trim their maximum deck size to 56.
Plus I'd personally prefer 3 lands to start just to have 1 more spell ^_^ (or the chance).
Cheers!
Decks I run Spoiler:
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I currently run a deck for Standard, Modern, Commander and Legacy.
For standard, I have a typical, horribly budget Rakdos Deck Wins.
For Modern, I have a very lovable mono-green, resistant to removal type of deck.
For Legacy, I'm trying too hard to break Pyromancer Ascension  .
For Commander/EDH, I'm running The Mimeoplasm  .
A little morals thing about me, I like winning through combos, but not infinitely.
However quiet, I am a Christian, so feel free to tell me you are too, it's always a relief.Cheers!
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5 months ago ::
Jan 01, 2013 - 8:11AM
#5
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Date Joined:
May 21, 2010
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Magic is a game of skill, skilled players should be able to beat unskilled ones more often then not. The variance is there so there can be upsets and the suspence of luck. Because if it wasnt, we might as well be playing chess.
Part of being a good magic player is accepting that there is variance in the game
Part of being a great player is knowing that you can do everything in your power, be it mulligans, deck builds, correct plays/bluffs, ect, to reduce variance to its minimum.
:For autocarding, write [ c ] card name [ / c ]
You can also do [*c=lightning bolt]'Bolt[/c*] to get 'Bolt
sigged because I always forget to do it
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5 months ago ::
Jan 01, 2013 - 9:06AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Sep 10, 2006
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Deck construction and resource management are important parts of playing magic. If you learn these things mana screw will become less of a problem.
Good in EDH
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5 months ago ::
Jan 01, 2013 - 12:00PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Nov 27, 2005
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Also I disagree with the initial premise here. The whole "affects bad players more than good players" bit is prolly true, but then your solution has the same effect since bad players will still run twenty lands whereas good players will be like "AGGRO OUT THE FACE BLAM!" and really the same can be said of any rule. Mulliganing wrong can definitely screw you, and it takes skill to know when to hold em/know when to fold em.
Harmful variance and fun though are both matters of opinion. On the one hand, yeah it kinda sucks to occasionally get my face beaten in by slivers while I'm one plains away from a wrath, but on the other hand it's incredibly exhilerating to be able to properly manage your resources and win a game with only two lands.
Zammm = Batman. Bronies unite."I'd call you a genius, but I'm in the room." It's my sig in a box
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Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
Funny story:
InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game.
I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul:
Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?"
Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy."
Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb."
Me: "*Sigh*. Okay."
I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board.
Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious. 
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol. 
I have the same problem with women.
Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
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And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now.
O' Jesus
Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle.
Amen.
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears  would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic  , giving you time to set up your silly  combo  . Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills 
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 01, 2013 - 12:16PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jul 17, 2003
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Learning about mana curve and how to gauge how many lands (of which type) go into a deck is part of growing in Magic-related skill. Providing an option to skirt around learning how to build decks properly only leads to stagnation. Go read Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron for an (albeit extreme) example of what happens when everyone is made equal on the lowest level, rather than the highest. Cheers!
A shout out to Gaming Grounds in Kent, Ohio and Gamers N Geeks in Mobile, Alabama.
www.zombiehunters.org for all your preparation needs.
http://shtfschool.com/ - why prepping is useful, from one who has been there.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 01, 2013 - 12:19PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Mar 12, 2006
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Variance is what makes a game a game.
Bad luck is part of games.
Bad luck affects all players equally- the difference between a good player and a bad one is the ability to win through bad luck.
Magic in built around the need to have mana in the deck- making a change to the fundamentals of the game by allowing 4 free lands changes everything.
(at)MrEnglish22
"still a better Commander card than Emmara Tandris"
-On the topic of Squire
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5 months ago ::
Jan 01, 2013 - 12:51PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Nov 10, 2009
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AT Agent8261, as you can see by the responses, most players(especially seasoned ones) are going to disagree with your premise and your proposed solution. At it's heart, managing your resources is what MTG is all about. Once you learn to, build better decks, play them better, and know when to mulligan, you'll understand why we (most) all feel the way we do. I agree with every statement posted in response above.
"Mana screw ruins the game" is the cry of the noob. Becoming a better player is the solution. Listen to the advice seasoned veterans might have to offer, these forums are full of awesome, intellegent individuals more than happy to help.(You may have to wade through a little sarcasm, but that's the price of admission.)
STEP 1: Find your cousin
STEP 2: Get your cousin in the cannon
STEP: 3 Find another cousin
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you loads
