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Jan 1, 2013 -- 1:13PM, Dragon_Nut wrote:

Jan 1, 2013 -- 12:07PM, Iam_IronMan wrote:

 I disagree completely on Martial Law being a dead draw. That's like saying Standstill or Bloodgift Demon are dead draws because they don't do anything/attack the turn you play them. I didn't even say I thought it was GOOD, just that it uses the ability in a seemingly effective way.

I also didn't say the Skyknight wasn't good, just that the ability itself isn't that good. Would you agree that 90% of the time you'd prefer it to just bounce the creature? There are exceptions to that but it's generally the case and it really holds the ability back in my opinion. Wouldn't you agree that making it untargetted improves every card with the ability both functionally and flavorfully? I mean, it's a guild ability, it SHOULD be good and flavorful.

As others have said: Standstill has the immediate effect of bringing the board to a halt. Bloodgift Demon is a creature. Neither of those is as important as the fact that Martial Law not only does nothing when it hits play, it also can be directly compared to other cards that do. Ultimately the flexibility of changing targets doesn't make up for the 'only creatures' thing and the four mana cost and the turn wait.

As for whether it would be better as bounce on Skyknight: I'm not certain actually. Bounce doesn't stop 'Walkers from Walking, it is an active negative against Swagtusk , Messenger , Thundermaw , and Resto , and does nothing against hasties like Ash Zealot . So no, I can't say that I would rather have Bounce actually. Maybe in a different format, but not this one.

As for untargeted? Of course that would be better. But it wouldn't make much sense from a design perspective and it would be counterintuitive. I don't think being able to hit untargetables makes sense flavorfully either.

I think you're expecting the wrong things from the ability. The ability isn't supposed to be an amazing shutdown tool. It's supposed to be a way to allow you to cast your beater without forcing you to choose between damage and disrupting the opponent's tempo. It fills that role incredibly well and it does so in a very balanced way.

Standstill really has little immediate effect. The majority of the time your opponent isn't able to do anything on your turn anyway. Besides, if your argument is that its presence will affect your opponent is able to play you could still make that argument for Martial Law - it'll affect what creatures they can/should play. It's admittedly less powerful but it's certainly false that cards are dead draws if they have no immediate effect when you play them. Even if that effect is a response of targetted removal before it goes off that's still an effect, and potentially still as good as having the thing in play doing what it's intended to do. As far as the Demon being a creature... Does it REALLY do anything that first turn other than soak up removal? It's not even as if competitive magic players do a lot of blocking. That's how it is in most formats I've played, anyway, last I checked. Blocking isn't totally irrelevant, of course, and I already said soaking up removal can be a good thing, so this still just supports my point that cards aren't dead just because they don't do anything. Every card can do SOMETHING. It's the SITUATION that makes the something relevant enough to consider the card not dead.

Still, the arguements are neither here nor there because I was talking about the ability rather than the cards. Again, I didn't even claim that any of those cards are good or bad. I've placed in a tournament or two in my day, I understand tempo and know a thing or two about evaluating cards. In the grand scheme of things the ability just doesn't stand out. It's a named keyword ability associated with a guild, so it SHOULD stand out, but every card that implements it as far as I have seen is little better than one turn Arrest . This is useful, certainly, but as I said the MAJORITY of the time bounce is just better. You set the opponent back one turn guaranteed, potentially longer if they don't have the resources to play the card again or there is no opportunity to play it again because there are more pertinent plays to be made or if they suspect you have a counter or something. They also lose any enchantments or other cards attached to them or committed to them being in play as well as any counters on them. They have to actually take the time and resources to correct what you did. The cards you named are the exceptions - which I already acknowledged exist - where it may not be a good idea to bounce the targets, but they are definitely not the rule.

Of course making it untargetted makes sense. Physically detaining a creature or object has nothing to do with magic, so it makes logical sense that being "hexproof" or "shrouded" in a protective aura would have little effect. What difference would it make if you are bulletproof or resistant to enchantment if I physically grab you up and lock you in a jail cell? It's a flavorful and practical way to make the ability, which is mediocre in the grand scheme of things, really unique and stand out. I'm not just talking about one format like standard, I'm talking about THE GAME. Even the untargetted thing wouldn't matter the majority of the time but it's at least something cool and interesting and useful.