The rules state that if a player would win and lose the game simultaneously, that player loses the game. However, there seems to be a small loophole. I've quoted the rules below and bolded the relevant parts for this scenario.
104.2. There are several ways to win the game. 104.2a A player still in the game wins the game if all of that player’s opponents have left the game. This happens immediately and overrides all effects that would prevent that player from winning the game. 104.2b An effect may state that a player wins the game. (In multiplayer games, this may not cause the game to end; see rule 104.3h.) ...
104.3. There are several ways to lose the game. 104.3a A player can concede the game at any time. A player who concedes leaves the game immediately. He or she loses the game. 104.3b If a player’s life total is 0 or less, he or she loses the game the next time a player would receive priority. (This is a state-based action. See rule 704.) 104.3c If a player is required to draw more cards than are left in his or her library, he or she draws the remaining cards, and then loses the game the next time a player would receive priority. (This is a state-based action. See rule 704.) 104.3d If a player has ten or more poison counters, he or she loses the game the next time a player would receive priority. (This is a state-based action. See rule 704.) 104.3e An effect may state that a player loses the game. 104.3f If a player would both win and lose the game simultaneously, he or she loses the game. 104.3g In a multiplayer game between teams, a team loses the game if all players on that team have lost the game. 104.3h In a multiplayer game, an effect that states that a player wins the game instead causes all of that player’s opponents to lose the game. (This may not cause the game to end if the limited range of influence option is being used; see rule 801.) ...
1) Win the game because I control Laboratory Maniac and am drawing off an empty library. 2) Lose the game because I'm at -1 life.
However, the rules state that I don't lose from having 0 or less life until a player would receive priority. Laboratory Maniac's effect would cause me to win immediately, while Sign in Blood is still resolving. As a result, I win and the game ends before I can lose.
Rule 104.3h complicates this further. If this scenario comes up in a multiplayer game, then instead of winning, everyone else loses. However, according to the rules, it seems as though they will all lose during the resolution of the spell, and I still win. The existence of rule 104.3f leads me to believe that this is not the intended outcome of this situation.
What's wrong with the outcome that you win the game?
There are many other situations where you would win and lose "almost" simultaneously, for instance if you're at 1 life and need to tap City of Brass to cast a game-winning Lightning Bolt . I don't see a problem with it.
The problem is that it's not intuitive. In this case, the effect of a single spell is causing me to both win and lose, but those two results aren't carried out a the same time.
However, the rules state that I don't lose from having 0 or less life until a player would receive priority. Laboratory Maniac's effect would cause me to win immediately, while Sign in Blood is still resolving. As a result, I win and the game ends before I can lose.
As you said, you win while Sign in Blood is still resolving, so even if you'd lose as you're applying state-based actions you'd still won't be winning and losing at the same time.
And even if you were to lose as soon as your life hits 0, you'd still supposed to draw before you lose life so you'll win before that.
The existence of rule 104.3f leads me to believe that this is not the intended outcome of this situation.
104.3f might be there as a way to cover their ****. I can't think of any interaction that would allow that to happen offhand, though my search lead me to some interesting possibilities.
First one: That's...weird, but it's weird because of cost-paying rules, not anything to do with this thread. I think you would win.
Yes, he would. The card is supposed to be drawn when paying, which happens before losing. Edit: Okay I see the complication now, this really is a weird. You're supposed to rewind your actions if you can't pay the whole cost entirely, but before you come and say "well can't pay, better rewind the whole thing" you already won. So I still think you would win.
Remember that for the rule to apply, winning and losing need to happen simultaneously. and that most of the time actions happen sequentially, except for cases where the same verb instructs them (with drawing and casting as exception) , or when the word "simultaneously" is used.
You'd porbably need some replacement effect to replace one action with a win and one with a loss. And this too can't happen by replacing draws (Laboratory Maniac , Forbidden Crypt ) because they never happen at the same time as other actions, not even with other draws. This pretty much closes all the possibilities you can make with available cards alone.
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My initial responses to rules questions are usually just answers. If you want an explanation as to why, say so. Just because it says I'm there, I'm not necessarily there. I leave my browser open so I don't have to reload ~30 tabs. Anyone who wants to text duel me through either PM or chat can just PM me with a format (and a time if playing through chat). I don't play standard.
2. You pay billions of dollars in cards to win. If you like wasting money just to win one game, while you could have saved it to lose a few and end up winning more in the future, then it is fine by me.
what?
do you ceremonially light your deck on fire after a win?
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[02:47:46] It doesn't merely "come out of suspend" - you take the last time counter off, and then suspend triggers and say "now cast that! CAST IT NOOOOOW!" [02:47:49] Because suspend has no indoors voice
[10:11:33] !opalescence [10:11:33] Opalescence {2WW} |Enchantment| Each other non-Aura enchantment is a creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost. It's still an enchantment. · Reserved,UD-R,Vin,Leg,Cla,USBC [10:11:51] *sigh* [10:12:10] Otecko: Do you have a question about Opalescence? [10:12:17] sure [10:12:23] $10 on humility interaction [10:12:25] :P [10:12:29] :D [10:12:47] humility + opalescence put into play by replenish
You are totally awesome. Thank you so much. I hope you are able to dine in Paradise without kicking the bucket to actually get there, and that every dollar you ever make magically becomes two more.
There are things that prevent you from activating activated abilities, things that increase their cost, and things that counter them, but I don't think anything triggers from them specifically.
There are things that trigger from targeting, so that might be relevant, but I can't think of anything that triggers from targeting a player.
I'm almost positive there's nothing that triggers from damage being prevented.
I control Nefarious Lich , Laboratory Maniac , and Ajani's Sunstriker . I have no cards in my library or graveyard. My opponent casts Backlash on my Sunstriker. Normally, I would gain life and take damage simultaneously, but since the "gain 2 life" is replaced by "draw two cards", it must be split into separate actions that happen sequentially. In this case, do I draw first (and win) or exile cards from my graveyard first (and lose)?
I control Nefarious Lich , Laboratory Maniac , and Ajani's Sunstriker . I have no cards in my library or graveyard. My opponent casts Backlash on my Sunstriker. Normally, I would gain life and take damage simultaneously, but since the "gain 2 life" is replaced by "draw two cards", it must be split into separate actions that happen sequentially. In this case, do I draw first (and win) or exile cards from my graveyard first (and lose)?
That is basically the exact scenario in the link I just posted. The actions happen simultaneously and the rule applies.
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My initial responses to rules questions are usually just answers. If you want an explanation as to why, say so. Just because it says I'm there, I'm not necessarily there. I leave my browser open so I don't have to reload ~30 tabs. Anyone who wants to text duel me through either PM or chat can just PM me with a format (and a time if playing through chat). I don't play standard.
2. You pay billions of dollars in cards to win. If you like wasting money just to win one game, while you could have saved it to lose a few and end up winning more in the future, then it is fine by me.
what?
do you ceremonially light your deck on fire after a win?
We regret to inform you of Trevor Kidd's untimely demise in an unfortunate accident involving a mysteriously blown breaker box and a photophobic creature of unknown origin at his home near Renton, Washington. We at the Wizards Community apologize for any inconvenience or delay, and assure you we'll be preparing a replacement to assume his duties as soon as we finish warming up the cloning vats.
[02:47:46] It doesn't merely "come out of suspend" - you take the last time counter off, and then suspend triggers and say "now cast that! CAST IT NOOOOOW!" [02:47:49] Because suspend has no indoors voice
[10:11:33] !opalescence [10:11:33] Opalescence {2WW} |Enchantment| Each other non-Aura enchantment is a creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost. It's still an enchantment. · Reserved,UD-R,Vin,Leg,Cla,USBC [10:11:51] *sigh* [10:12:10] Otecko: Do you have a question about Opalescence? [10:12:17] sure [10:12:23] $10 on humility interaction [10:12:25] :P [10:12:29] :D [10:12:47] humility + opalescence put into play by replenish
You are totally awesome. Thank you so much. I hope you are able to dine in Paradise without kicking the bucket to actually get there, and that every dollar you ever make magically becomes two more.
There are things that prevent you from activating activated abilities, things that increase their cost, and things that counter them, but I don't think anything triggers from them specifically.
There are things that trigger from targeting, so that might be relevant, but I can't think of anything that triggers from targeting a player.
I'm almost positive there's nothing that triggers from damage being prevented.
)
