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Switch to Forum Live View Costs and effects: Zur the Enchanter
5 months ago  ::  Dec 24, 2012 - 8:13PM #1
BlizzardWizard
Date Joined: Dec 21, 2010
Posts: 217
Zur the Enchanter:

Whenever Zur the Enchanter attacks, you may search your library for an enchantment card with converted mana cost 3 or less and put it onto the battlefield. If you do, shuffle your library.

My question concerns terminology: the difference between costs and effects. What exactly defines whether a specific part of an effect is a cost, and when is it not a cost.

In the template

'You may ... . If you do, [effect]

Is ... always a cost, or not ? If not, what determines whether it is or isn't ?

Wooden Sphere's wording:

'You may pay {1}. If you do, [effect]

Obviously a cost. Let's change it.

'You may discard a card. If you do, [effect]

Still pretty obviously a cost. Let's change it.

'You may draw three cards. If you do, [effect]

Less obvious, but I think it's still a cost. Let's change it.

'You may search your library for a card, and put it into your hand. If you do, [effect]

Very fuzzy.

So where is the line drawn ? Is the search clause of Zur the Enchanter a cost to shuffle the library? If not, How is this determined?
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5 months ago  ::  Dec 24, 2012 - 8:56PM #2
FezzHead
Date Joined: Dec 13, 2011
Posts: 1,661
Searching your library as a result of Zur's ability is in fact a cost.

From the comp rules...

Costs Show

117.12. Some spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities read, “[Do something]. If [a player]
[does or doesn’t], [effect].” or “[A player] may [do something]. If [that player] [does or doesn’t],
[effect].” The action [do something] is a cost, paid when the spell or ability resolves. The “If [a
player] [does or doesn’t]” clause checks whether the player chose to pay an optional cost or started
to pay a mandatory cost, regardless of what events actually occurred.


Effects Show

609.1. An effect is something that happens in the game as a result of a spell or ability. When a spell,
activated ability, or triggered ability resolves, it may create one or more one-shot or continuous
effects. Static abilities may create one or more continuous effects. Text itself is never an effect.


Something can be both a cost and an effect.
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5 months ago  ::  Dec 25, 2012 - 5:24AM #3
BlizzardWizard
Date Joined: Dec 21, 2010
Posts: 217
That was my conclusion as well. It just seems ... odd.
Clearly, the main effect of Zur's ability is supposed to be the search. The shuffling is just an afterthought, so seeing the search as a cost to shuffle is kind of counterintuitive to a typical player.

There is a way to word Zur without making it a cost, which I think is probably preferable:

Whenever Zur the Enchanter attacks, you may search your library for an enchantment card with converted mana cost 3 or less, put it onto the battlefield, and then shuffle your library.

The reason why 'if you do' is used in Zur is not to make the search a cost, but to make shuffling the library dependent on the search, so that the player doesn't have to shuffle each time Zur attacks. The suggested wording makes the shuffle part of the same sentence, and as such part of the 'may', making 'if you do' redundant.
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5 months ago  ::  Dec 25, 2012 - 6:59AM #4
adeyke
  • Celestial Teapots are broken!
Date Joined: Feb 24, 2007
Posts: 9,390
They sometimes say "then" and sometimes say "if you do". For the sake of consistency, I'd prefer if they stuck to just one of them, but that's a separate issue.

I don't understand what the problem with the "if you do" wording is, though. That does make it a cost, but I'm not aware of a situation where the fact that it's a cost matters. What would be the benefit of making it not be a cost?
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5 months ago  ::  Dec 25, 2012 - 8:01AM #5
Soular
Date Joined: Jul 23, 2007
Posts: 376
I'd rather define it as an optional instruction, and define costs as a type of an optional instruction.

Also, because the search might not happen they use "if you do, shuffle", so I find it consistent.

I still wonder why Zur the Enchanter 's ability is optional in the first place. Maybe it's meant to allow Zur to attack without messing " Index ed" cards or triggering Psychgenic Probe , unlike Isperia the Inscrutable . Other search effects on triggered abilities are meant to happen only once in the object's lifetime (enters/dies), or are tied to another optional action ( Blood Speaker - "you may sacrifice").
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5 months ago  ::  Dec 25, 2012 - 8:16AM #6
adeyke
  • Celestial Teapots are broken!
Date Joined: Feb 24, 2007
Posts: 9,390
Quite a few searches are optional. Finding something is optional anyways (if it's more specific than "a card"), but making the search itself optional also makes sense, especially if there's the possibility the player doesn't want to (or can't) find an appropriate card. If Zur's ability were mandatory, you'd be stuck with the busy work of shuffling your library each time he attacks even after you've already gotten all the Aura cards from your library.
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5 months ago  ::  Dec 25, 2012 - 8:42AM #7
Soular
Date Joined: Jul 23, 2007
Posts: 376

Dec 25, 2012 -- 8:16AM, adeyke wrote:

Quite a few searches are optional. Finding something is optional anyways (if it's more specific than "a card"), but making the search itself optional also makes sense, especially if there's the possibility the player doesn't want to (or can't) find an appropriate card.


Good point. it looks as if there's some inconsistency on whether a quality-specific search effect in a triggered ability is optional or not. It seems that most of the cards with such an effect are optional, and if I'm not mistaken, newly printed cards are made mostly optional.

But then there is Mwonvuli Beast Tracker as an exception, I wonder if it was a calculated decision to make it mandatory or just a mistake.

If Zur's ability were mandatory, you'd be stuck with the busy work of shuffling your library each time he attacks even after you've already gotten all the Aura cards from your library.


It could be the reason, but becasue shuffling a fully random deck can be shortened to not physically shuffling at all, so it might not be a reason enough. That's why I specified " index ing" and Psychogenic Probe as the reason.

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5 months ago  ::  Dec 25, 2012 - 11:16AM #8
BlizzardWizard
Date Joined: Dec 21, 2010
Posts: 217
There is the hypothetical 'If you would search your library, sacrifice a creature instead.'

This would be a functional difference when combined with Angel of Jubilation, depending on whether it is a cost or not.

I've only used Zur as an example.

I'm pretty sure there are other 'if you do' costs out there which are a bit odd and which would make more sense as non-costs.
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5 months ago  ::  Dec 25, 2012 - 12:25PM #9
adeyke
  • Celestial Teapots are broken!
Date Joined: Feb 24, 2007
Posts: 9,390
Angel of Jubilation doesn't say anything about costs in general. It specifically says "to cast spells or activate abilities". It doesn't stop sacrifices or life payments to pay for other costs.

Indeed, I don't think there's any card that cares about costs in general. The fact that Zur's library searching is technically a cost might be interesting rules trivia, but it's not more than that. Most players don't need to know that it's a cost or even what the technical definition of a cost is.

And yes, there are some rather absurd costs. Delif's Cone is a prime example. The actual benefit is the cost, while the effect is something you really don't want. It really doesn't make sense to conceptually view gaining life there as a cost, but I still don't see what benefit there would be to making it a non-cost.

Is there any actual, non-hypothetical, situation where it matters that something is a cost? Is there a functional difference between the abilities of Ondu Giant and Farhaven Elf ?
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5 months ago  ::  Dec 25, 2012 - 1:39PM #10
Soular
Date Joined: Jul 23, 2007
Posts: 376
I should have read FezzHead's sblocks, okay, it's pretty well defined as a cost. No question about it.

Dec 25, 2012 -- 12:25PM, adeyke wrote:

Is there a functional difference between the abilities of Ondu Giant and Farhaven Elf ?



It depends. How does Ondu Giant interact with Mindblock Orb ? The rulings only specify optional searching with "if you do ... shuffle" or mandatory searching with ",then search" . But no mention for "may search, do something. Then,shuffle". Sounds to me like Ondu Giant needs to be streamlined to use "if you do" for clarity.

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