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6 months ago ::
Dec 21, 2012 - 5:23AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2010
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The rules currently support both targeting zones and targeting players.
Because of this, wordings like
"target opponent's hand" are ambiguous. They could be interpreted to target either the player, or the zone (of a specific player).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the intent here is to target the player, not his hand.
This matters if that player has shroud.
I am aware that the zone targeting rule was created for a single card (Circu, Dimir Lobotomist)
The thing is, that this card does not actually need it.
'Target library' could easily be changed to 'target player's library'
(And space concerns on a single card should not be a reason to create rules like this)
After this wording change, targeting zones is no longer required and can be deleted from the rules, also solving the ambiguity problem in the process.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 21, 2012 - 6:26AM
#2
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- Celestial Teapots are broken!
Date Joined:
Feb 24, 2007
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You're right that the wording is ambiguous. However, we do know which interpretation is correct: nothing but Circu ever targets a zone.
Sadly, the space concern was the reason for the rule. At the time it was printed, they couldn't have fit "player's" onto the card. Now that we have "exile", there's plenty of space for that.
I don't like that that rule exists. I sort of wish they would just get rid of it and give Circu the standard wording. However, that sort of functional change isn't something they're going to do.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 21, 2012 - 10:08AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2009
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I think Circu  should just change its text and that's it. The fact that players even have to think about the differnce between targeting a player and a zone is just ridiculous.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 21, 2012 - 10:29AM
#4
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Targeting zones is dumb. It was a hack when Circu, Dimir Lobotomist  was printed. We can fix it now, so we should errata Circu and clean up the rules. Ninty percent of players would never notice. It only matters if a player has hexproof. I bet most players think Circu cannot target them if they have hexproof anyway.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 22, 2012 - 11:18AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jan 23, 2007
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Ninty percent of players would never notice. It only matters if a player has hexproof. I bet most players think Circu cannot target them if they have hexproof anyway.
Seconded. He's not unique enough to support having his own rule.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 23, 2012 - 7:09AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2007
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+1 for errata-ing Circu. I think most people would be surprised to find out Circu works when your opponent has an Ivory Mask  , and thanks to "exile" the conventional wording would even fit on the card in the unlikely case that he gets reprinted. However, I don't share the OP's concern about ambiguity. The construction "target [X]'s [Y]" shows up all over the place in Magic, and in all cases it's X that is targeted. Admittedly most of the time Y isn't something targetable, but there's no reason to expect it works differently in the cases where it is.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 27, 2012 - 9:18AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Mar 18, 2012
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Why doesn't Circu target the player in the first place?
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6 months ago ::
Dec 27, 2012 - 9:20AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jan 19, 2003
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Why doesn't Circu target the player in the first place?
As adeyke mentioned, it was because space on the card was very tight. The text in Circu's  first two abilities could fit if it said "target library", but would overflow if it said "target player's library". (source)
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6 months ago ::
Dec 27, 2012 - 9:38AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2011
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I believe this issue has come up at least once before, and I am in favor of errata on Circu. If he were printed today, "exile" would allow plenty of room for his original intended wording.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 27, 2012 - 10:38AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jul 23, 2007
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I'm mosty leaning towards not changing it. Is the ambiguity mentioned in the first post a real problem? if not then it's not that much of a deal which makes it feel like a case of "if it's not broken, don't fix it". And if we want the other cards to be unambiguous from a technical point of view, then we can have a rule that explains that the statement "target [player]'s [zone]" is targetting the [player].
But if you still think he should change, how about treating him like older cards whose use of the word "target" is no longer appropriate? Make the effect "exile the top card of a library", not "exile the top card of target player's library". This would make the choice happen during resolution, but this would also allow it to work under shroud effects.
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