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6 months ago  ::  Dec 22, 2012 - 9:30PM #11
Kazepenku
Date Joined: Nov 21, 2012
Posts: 825

Dec 22, 2012 -- 7:36PM, Jaz. wrote:

The point of control and making the tempo work for you is being able to build up mana, and stick a huge, preferably evasive threat and win. Or to drop a big damage spell, or to mill the opponent out -- it depends on the deck you want to play.

With Nephalia Drownyard as a land, you have the option of an alternate win condition by milling 3-6 cards a turn (4-7 if you count the card your opponent draws each turn).

In short, "Control" as a deck is to make the game work for you. While in an aggro deck like RDW, you want to stick enough threats as fast as possible and turn sideways. Tempo decks (see old Delver) want to try to stay a step ahead of the game, playing a bunch of cards to net advantage (like lots of spells with cantrips, undercosted creatures, etc.) These are all ways to stay ahead of the game. In Control decks however, you're trying to stall the game out and basically make the pace work for you, instead of you trying to outplay your opponent necessarily. They're slow, they're insidious, but when unchecked can really lock out your opponent -- and yes, make them cry at times.

With a deck like this running only a few choice threats, you don't lose much by dropping big spells like Mutilation , Barter in Blood , and stuff that affects all players. The point is you're minimizing damage to yourself, while maximizing it against your opponents.

On to your individual questions:

Liliana is pricy last I checked. And in fairness, you probably wouldn't be using her ultimate very much. It's her +1, and particularly her -2 that will help you keep the board state how you want.

And here's my problem with GrimGrin: He really wants tokens. He wants a lot of creatures available so you can keep attacking with him. The problem is, you have to weight whether you're sacrificing a creature that's a less important card than what your opponent does when you attack. Like if you really want to use him, maybe you can try an Esper Token build. Run cards like Lingering Souls , Geralf's Messenger and other things that can be sacc'd. That's a different deck though.

But cards that retain value through GrimGrin are undying creatures, cards that make multiple tokens, and creatures that you can recur (like Gravecrawler ).




hmm ok. I think I get it. So Grimgrin isn't a really good win condition because my deck is not built around it, so I need a better win-con creature/damage spell. Damage spell is hard to find without tapping into red... what would be a good threat? maybe mainboard desecration demon, a good pseudo-controllish creature? Big Blue-black creatures are so hard to find =(. There's Griselbrand... or can I mesh mikaeus, the unhallowed and grimgrin together?
The only problem is that if I want to do that, I have to throw out Lich because apparently undying is defined in such a way that if I steal someone's creature through Havengul Lich, it returns to the enemy's side with +1/+1 if it dies =(

Right now I have 3/4 bloodline keepers, I'll probably put in 2 evil twin still because stealing someone's creatures to chump-block or to kill the next turn are always fun. Havengul Lich I'll keep 2 until I can find a better solution, because it's basically "steal target dead creature + activated abilities can be used" and can be used to steal their win-con late game. Grimgrin is gone, so is Nefarox and Whale, that leaves me with 2/3 creature slots. 

I can't afford Snapcaster, so I'll have to find alternatives to him... Griselbrand is always a fun card to make people cry on turn 8.

Enchantments: Curse of Death's Hold looks fun.

Spells: Rift, cancel, sycopate, ultimate price, think twice, 

I never got how Jace's -2 is good. Not only does the opponent get to choose which cards you keep or not keep, they also know what card you chose. Isn't that bad overall for a control deck? M13 Jace seems safer, its +1 is basically a righteous authority passive and you get to mill someone (or yourself, I donno).

btw how do you sideboard against another person playing control?

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6 months ago  ::  Dec 23, 2012 - 8:23PM #12
Jaz.
Date Joined: Dec 22, 2010
Posts: 688
You should be fine to throw a couple Evil Twin in for now. It's going to be very hard finding U/B threats right now without Dimir actually available yet.

Snappy is very expensive right now. He isn't TOO critical in your deck, and I'd consider running Vampire Nighthawk . He's good tempo in your kind of deck.

The Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and GrimGrin, Corpse Born combo is expensive (mana wise), and in turn inefficient. You're talking 5-mana, then 6-mana, then you also need a host of other creatures in colors that don't support that kind of game plan well. As I said, you're better off with the Esper build to have access to more robust token makers -- you can merge BW tokens with control elements blue offers. If you want to talk about that archetype, Sorin, Lord of Innistrad is your planeswalker.

Speaking of planeswalkers, on to Jace, Architect of Thought 's -2. What that does is effectively a mini Fact or Fiction . That card is spectacular when it comes to filtering your deck, and putting your opponent in a position of making a choice as to what his fate will be. He does not select the cards you put in your hand, simply divides the cards into two piles. You choose which pile to take, which could be anything from 1, 2, or all 3 cards depending on how your opponent chooses to divide them. It's a great way to get through cards, help improve your chances of drawing bombs, is overall card advantage. It's almost irrelevant that your opponent knows what those cards are.

Jace's +1 is also advantageous. It nerfs your opponent's next attack, by even a couple points. In a game where you're trying to mess with your opponent's mental math and feelings of control, that's great to tack on. Milling on the other hand, you'll often hear is not effective. It doesn't affect the board state, nor does it net you any advantage. It's a dangerous path if you start trying to use milling as a primary win condition. Like I said, Nephalia Drownyard is good because it takes a land slot, not a spell slot, and can be used on your opponent's turn, effectively not wasting your time to mill. It seems slow, but can be effective when used often enough as an alternate win condition.

M13 Jace needs to be used on your turn, takes a spell slot that could be something punchier, and costs 5 mana to boot. Think how long he'll actually live -- you have to use his mill ability at least 4 times say to mill your opponent out. Maybe he'll do it once before he's removed and now you've netted no advantage for yourself, but wasted a turn casting him, and now you're out of mana for a counterspell or removal spell when you really would've liked one.

Sideboarding: I'll be honest, I'm not very good at sideboarding. I never understood it, I never felt I've made smart decisions, but here's my two cents. The mirror match will ultimately come down to who is outdrawing the other player, and who is answering threats a beat sooner. This is where having options to draw your deck and find answers faster comes in handy. There will be a lot of counterspells, and a lot of big bombs. You'll find mass removal spells less effective than cheaper spot removal, and cards like Duress will be good.

I'll try to help you out as much as I can! But you should think about a couple questions before going forward:

1.) Are you attached to particular cards (GrimGrin, etc.)? If so, consider adding white, and going an aggressive route. It's not bad, it'll just be different from what your original idea was.
2.) Do you like running a lot of creature threats? If so, U/B is probably not your color combination. They are they weakest in creature superiority. G/W is the strongest creature combination, with Red sitting in the middle.
3.) Do you like complex combos (Mikaeus + GrimGrin, Lantern + Lich)? If so, you should again take a look at that Chromatic Lantern deck I linked earlier, or the Human reanimator deck that's cropped up. Both promote strong combo synergy. But be careful for the deck becoming too much of a glass cannon.

If you don't feel like any of these are particularly important qualities in deck building to you, I think you can go forward with the U/B deck at the moment. But like I said, it's a tough road without Dimir. When Gatecrash comes out, it will be much, much easier to try new stuff.

Cheers!
Puresteel players unite!
[Archetype] PURESTEEL
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 24, 2012 - 3:58AM #13
Osu
Date Joined: Mar 7, 2012
Posts: 438
I love anything that tries to use evil twin.
Next thing you will tell me Browbeat is bad.
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 24, 2012 - 10:38AM #14
SyskoNango
Date Joined: Jun 3, 2012
Posts: 81
fact or fiction is a great card advantge card. jace does a mini one.  they get to choose how they want to lose. and fact of the matter is you still get to choose. i doubt{unless its all lands] that you dont get wat u r looking for 3 cards deep.
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