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5 months ago ::
Dec 18, 2012 - 12:10PM
#1
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What happens when a Clone  - like creature  and another creature enter the battlefield simultaneously from Warp World  's effect (or other similar effect with no permanents to start with)? Are they unable to copy anything, usually resulting in them entering as 0/0s and dying?
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5 months ago ::
Dec 18, 2012 - 12:11PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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they cannot copy other permanents that enter at the same time so it won't work for Warp World (except if they somehow are enchantment cards), but it would work for Hypergenesis  , because no all creatures enter at the same time for that
proud member of the 2011 community team
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5 months ago ::
Dec 18, 2012 - 12:13PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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The rules are ambiguous about this, but it's well established that the as-enters choices happen before the would-be permanent enters the battlefield. Since Warp World removed all permanents, there is nothing for Phyrexian Metamorph to copy, so it will enter as 0/0 and die shortly after.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 18, 2012 - 6:27PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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The rules are ambiguous about this
400.6, 604.2, 614.1, 614.4, 614.12 don't seem ambiguous to me, but they could be more explicit.
MtG Rules Advisor &
Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJDJ VortexDCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320 Wit found in Rules Q&ARPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?" My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out
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5 months ago ::
Dec 19, 2012 - 12:53AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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The rules and the card say it happens as it enters the battlefield, in which case the Phyrexian Metamorph would have something to clone, but the choice is actually made before the event. None of the rules you listed mention this.
I'm sorry that you don't see it, but there were a number of people who did. I remember jeff being one of them.
There's no use repeating previous threads, so that's all I have to say.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 19, 2012 - 5:51AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2012
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@ikegami: At the risk of repeating a previous thread, I would like to ask about the ambiguity to which you're referring. Even after reading over the rules and pondering their application, I am unable to see an ambiguity.
If you would prefer to simply link me to an earlier thread, that's fine, too.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 19, 2012 - 2:56PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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I just described it above. The rules says it happens as the P.M. enters the battlefield (when the P.M. and others are on the battlefield), but it happens before (when they aren't). I'd link to thread it if I knew how to find it. Honestly, it doesn't matter that you don't see the problem; that others see a problem is a problem.
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5 months ago ::
Dec 19, 2012 - 4:02PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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The rules and the card say it happens as it enters the battlefield, in which case the Phyrexian Metamorph would have something to clone, but the choice is actually made before the event. None of the rules you listed mention this.
400.6. If an object would move from one zone to another, determine what event is moving the object. If the object is moving to a public zone, all players look at it to see if it has any abilities that would affect the move. Then any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or from elsewhere, are applied to that event. If any effects or rules try to do two or more contradictory or mutually exclusive things to a particular object, that object’s controller—or its owner if it has no controller—chooses which effect to apply, and what that effect does. (Note that multiple instances of the same thing may be mutually exclusive; for example, two simultaneous “destroy” effects.) Then the event moves the object.
This rule says look at the object in its current zone, find any abilities that would affect the move, then look for replacement effects like Metamorph's and apply them to the event and finally the object is moved.
It obviously is saying to make the choice prior to the object arriving therefore we're using the gamestate prior to the event occuring when making that choice.
MtG Rules Advisor &
Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJDJ VortexDCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320 Wit found in Rules Q&ARPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?" My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out
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5 months ago ::
Dec 19, 2012 - 4:04PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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400.6 isn't relevant since nothing here affects the move. (Something merely happens at the same time.)
And if it does apply, it contradicts claims that it happens as it enters the battlefield. (Card itself and 112.6g)
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5 months ago ::
Dec 19, 2012 - 4:06PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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No, because the last line says "then the event moves the object" which can only mean it's still in the prior zone.
112.6g and 614.12 reinforce this.
Clone and Metamorph have appropriate replacement effects that affect their move, do they not?
There's no contradiction with 112.6g, the process of an object transitioning from a zone to the battlefield just tells you that the ability would be an appropriate replacement effect to apply to the zone move.
MtG Rules Advisor &
Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJDJ VortexDCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320 Wit found in Rules Q&ARPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?" My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out
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