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6 months ago ::
Nov 30, 2012 - 12:52PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2010
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So the other day, MaRo said on tumblr that it is difficult to make red goo.d in multiplayer and even asked how to fix it. Here's a place to put your ideas and opinions.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 30, 2012 - 1:04PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2010
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I feel like one of Red's problems lack of card advantage. In longer multiplayer games, its paticularly taxing to be top decking and hoping for something swingy enough to matter.
I wonder that hellbent style mechanics on higher CMC cards could help. Once you've dumped your hand, Red should reward you for following its impulsive philosophy.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 30, 2012 - 2:26PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Dec 27, 2009
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I was interested in taking suggestions for how to make red better in EDH. More recursive effects. Red is allowed to get things out of the yard if they're artifacts ( usually in weird ways  ), instants or sorceries, or at random. Push that. Mana dumps. More things to do late game when you have a stable board position, but maybe not a lot in the hand. Things that can be used in the graveyard. More aggresively costed board wipes.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 30, 2012 - 3:22PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jan 23, 2007
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There's a number of creatures with 1R: do 1 damage, I'd like an enchantment that does the same. Effects that increase the damage of all of your sources.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 30, 2012 - 4:04PM
#5
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On the tumblr, someone mentioned the idea of a Volcano. Running with that: You pump in mana to charge up an artifact/enchantment/land with a "when this dies, deal damage equal to the number of counters on it split between any number of target creatures, players, or planeswalkers".
It's long term in one way (you're pumping it up) but very short term in another (when you actually do something, you have to do it all at once)
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6 months ago ::
Dec 01, 2012 - 12:01PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Oct 12, 2010
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I feel like one of Red's problems lack of card advantage. In longer multiplayer games, its paticularly taxing to be top decking and hoping for something swingy enough to matter. I wonder that hellbent style mechanics on higher CMC cards could help. Once you've dumped your hand, Red should reward you for following its impulsive philosophy.
Technically, red gets card advantage by destroying two things with one card (and of course, flashback). But red doesn't get card draw in a way which grants card advantage. We could play up the fact that cantrips go across colors.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 01, 2012 - 12:57PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Dec 27, 2009
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I feel that on a fundamental level that because drawing cards is such a ubiquitous part of the game, that every color should be allowed access to it in some manner. Not looting, actual card draw. Actually implementing on on the other hand is another trick. No one complained about Knollspine Dragon  , but that's a splashy rare that's too expensive for competitive play. Desperate Ravings  grants you +1 upon flashback, but that requires blue to implement. A Goblin Lore  that does more than just replace itself might work, but players have historically not reacted fondly to random looting. I think we should take a note from how green and white have made strides in card draw recently. Green's is always attached to its creatures in someway. White plays into its uniques strengths, with Puresteel Paladin  and mentor of the Meek  granting you cards in exchange for going all in on white strategies. Might there be a red way to do this? Drawing cards whenever you successfully blow up an artifact or land, or whenever you successfully deal non-combat damage to a player?
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6 months ago ::
Dec 02, 2012 - 8:19PM
#8
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With the looting that Red's been getting, it would be nice if it could get some of that recursion from Black. Ideally, single turn recursion that causes exiling afterwards. Goryo's Vengeance  , for example, would be a great Red mechanic. Even if you didn't want recursion, you could have things like "exile a sorcery card from your graveyard. Deal damage equal to its CMC to blah." If Red's going to be filling up its graveyard, let it do some Reddish things with it. As for not quickly burning out in long multiplayer games -- I don't know, that's kind of Red's point: you gotta kill everyone else quick. But there are a couple things I could see Red doing to get better while still feeling Red. 1) More mana sinks; enchantments with (Cost) : (Action) would be great for Red -- Moonveil Dragon  is a great EDH card, keep spreading the love. 2) Things that Red does to reduce its own battlefield presence should also cantrip or give extra draws. I could see a Sorcery-speed Fling  at   that did exactly the same thing but also had "Draw two cards" attached to it. Red voluntarily self-destructs. For games where Red is facing lots of opponents, it simply won't win if it can't recover from its own immolation. It needs to have spells that are big that do normal Red things, but also allow for that kind of recovery.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 03, 2012 - 9:38AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2010
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I think I agree with most of this. Red is not good at maintaining board presence in the long term. It's like red needs to drop its whole
"I'm faster than you" schtick in favor of something else. I'm not sure exactly what that should be, though.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 04, 2012 - 3:44AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2004
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I very much support this thread. I think this kind of idea:
As for not quickly burning out in long multiplayer games -- I don't know, that's kind of Red's point: you gotta kill everyone else quick.
is poison to be able to dismiss one of the five colours of Magic.
On card drawing:
I think I do support the idea that red ought to be able to at least cantrip when it blows its own stuff up. A version of Arms Dealer  / Airdrop Condor  saying something like "2R, Sacrifice a Goblin creature: ~ deals damage to target creature or player equal to that Goblin's power. Draw a card." Or a version of Batterhorn  saying "When ~ enters the battlefield, you may destroy target artifact. If you controlled that artifact, draw a card."
Widening the conversation from card drawing to card advantage:
There are a handful of good red cockroach cards. We've already had Kumano, Master Yamabushi  and Flowstone Overseer  alluded to. The enchantment version is sortof Task Mage Assembly  or Pyrohemia  , but neither is quite ideal. Someone mentioned returning instants/sorceries, as on Surreal Memoir  ; particularly notable here is Charmbreaker Devils  , an amazing source of card advantage.
Red also gets plenty of card advantage from repeatable/multiple burn like Siege-Gang Commander  or Hatchet Bully  .
Red also gets plenty of card advantage from Kiki-Jiki / Splinter Twin  . It makes us shudder because of the ETB-untap infinite combos, but a more restricted Kiki-Jiki ought to be doable: something like a legend with "R, T: Put a 3/1 red Elemental creature token with haste onto the battlefield. Exile it at the beginning of the next end step." Or a vertical cycle of creatures that do that, perhaps the common one as a oneoff ETB trigger but the uncommon and rare doing it repeatedly.
There are a handful of red card-advantage instants. Things like Grab the Reins  , Blood Feud  , or the way that you need red mana to make Orim's Thunder  card advantage. (Also I suppose Into the Core  .) More of those would be good, though.
Just out of interest, I went through the past few expert-level sets looking for (mono)red card advantage cards. (Using a fairly inflexible definition of card advantage, for sanity. I didn't include virtual card advantage, even Shattered Perception  , and I didn't include symmetrical burn like Blasphemous Act  . I did count any creature as a card, even just a 1/1.) Here's what I found:
Return to Ravnica: Batterhorn (common), Electrickery  (common), Survey the Wreckage  (common), Goblin Rally  (uncommon), Pyroconvergence  (uncommon), Street Spasm  (uncommon), Vandalblast  (uncommon), Mizzium Mortars  (rare), Guild Feud  (rare), Utvara Hellkite  (mythic)
Avacyn Restored: Aggravate  (uncommon), Falkenrath Exterminator  (uncommon), Gang of Devils  (uncommon), Vigilante Justice  (uncommon), Dual Casting  (rare), Hound of Griselbrand  (rare), Tyrant of Discord  (rare), Bonfire of the Damned  (mythic)
Dark Ascension: Forge Devil  (common), Nearheath Stalker  (common), Blood Feud (uncommon), Pyreheart Wolf  (uncommon), Werewolf Ransacker  (uncommon), Alpha Brawl  (rare), Flayer of the Hatebound  (rare), Increasing Vengeance  (rare)
Innistrad: Geistflame  (common), Pitchburn Devils  (common), Burning Vengeance  (uncommon), Into the Maw of Hell  (uncommon), Charmbreaker Devils (rare), Devil's Play  (rare), Heretic's Punishment  (rare), Past in Flames  (mythic), Balefire Dragon  (mythic)
New Phyrexia: Fallen Ferromancer  (uncommon), Rage Extractor  (uncommon), Tormentor Exarch  (uncommon), Chancellor of the Forge  (rare)
Mirrodin Besieged: Blisterstick Shaman  (common), Kuldotha Flamefiend  (uncommon), Galvanoth  (rare)
Scars of Mirrodin: Kuldotha Rebirth  (common), Oxidda Scrapmelter  (uncommon), Arc Trail  (uncommon), Bloodshot Trainee  (uncommon), Embersmith  (uncommon), Furnace Celebration  (uncommon), Turn to Slag  (uncommon), Hoard-Smelter Dragon  (rare), Spikeshot Elder  (rare)
Interesting that flashback, undying, and overload are all block mechanics that manage to provide red with a bit of card advantage. It's also worth noting (though not particularly surprising) that about half of the cards above derive their card advantage from the ability to burn more than one opposing creature. (The rest are mainly from "creature + burn something", "creature + Shatter  " or "multiple creatures" (including undying)).
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