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6 months ago ::
Nov 24, 2012 - 11:19AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Mar 12, 2011
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If you use Heat Shimmer  to create a token copy of, say, Runeclaw Bear  , and then populate or otherwise create a copy of that token, does that new copy have the haste and "At the beginning of the end step, exile this permanent." abilities? So what I'm asking is, are those abilities part of the copying effect or are they granted to the creature afterwards. Not sure on this.
I'm a Rules Advisor now  "Simple questions" usually need rather complex answers, while complex questions often come down to no more than a simple "yes" or "no". Some of my favorite Flavor texts:
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6 months ago ::
Nov 24, 2012 - 11:24AM
#2
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because the removal is an ability given to the token, if you populate it, the copy will have it as well
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6 months ago ::
Nov 24, 2012 - 11:28AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Mar 12, 2011
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because the removal is an ability given to the token, if you populate it, the copy will have it as well
Only if it's part of the copy effect. If it's granted afterwards, it won't get copied to the new token. Since both abilities are listed in a seperate sentence, I'm not sure on them being part of the original copy effect.
I'm a Rules Advisor now "Simple questions" usually need rather complex answers, while complex questions often come down to no more than a simple "yes" or "no". Some of my favorite Flavor texts:
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6 months ago ::
Nov 24, 2012 - 11:34AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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in this case the trigger is part of the token and will get copied compare the wording of Heat Shimmer to Seance  if you populate Seance tokens you get to keep them, but you have to sacrifice exile the populated Heat Shimmer token
proud member of the 2011 community team
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6 months ago ::
Nov 24, 2012 - 11:39AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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so what your asking is... does 706.9a apply here to the second sentence or is it a separate effect? 706.9a Some copy effects cause the copy to gain an ability as part of the copying process. This ability becomes part of the copiable values for the copy, along with any other abilities that were copied.
I'll go with what MTGO does as the answer - testing... done.
MTGO treats it as a separate effect so only the token put on by Shimmer gets it, it's not copied to the populated token.
Proof
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Notice the populated token doesn't have haste either
MtG Rules Advisor &
Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJDJ VortexDCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320 Wit found in Rules Q&ARPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?" My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out
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6 months ago ::
Nov 24, 2012 - 11:59AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2010
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Then I will have to disagree with MTGO, the haste and exile ability are a part of the copy effect. Had a discussion about effects that use the words "has' and "gains" in them a few months back. If an effect states that the token "has" haste (for example) then that is part of the copy effect and is applied in layer 1, a good example of this is Splinter Twin  . On the other hand if it states that the token "gains" haste that is not part of the copy effect and that is applied in layer 6, an example of that would be Mimic Vat  . Since in this example Heat Shimmer states that the token "has" haste and the ability that at the end of turn it's exiled that would be applied in layer 1 and would be copied by the populate.
DCI Level 2 Judge
Rockford, Illinois
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6 months ago ::
Nov 24, 2012 - 12:11PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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That doesn't prove anything though Splinter Twin has the exact same issue. Is it a modification to the copy effect or is it merely a separate continuous effect? The rulings don't say either way. 112.10. Effects can add or remove abilities of objects. An effect that adds an ability will state that the object “gains” or “has” that ability. An effect that removes an ability will state that the object “loses” that ability. Effects that remove an ability remove all instances of it. If two or more effects add and remove the same ability, in general the most recent one prevails. (See rule 613, “Interaction of Continuous Effects.” )
There doesn't appear to be a special distiction between the usage of has or gains.
Compare Goblin Assault  which uses with to set the characteristic of the token.
Even Splinter Twin itself disputes your assertion.
Enchanted creature has " : Put a token that's a copy of this creature onto the battlefield. That token has haste. Exile it at the beginning of the next end step."
certainly, you wouldn't say that the ability granted by Splinter Twin to the creature that its attached to would be copied, right? (it uses has too)
Based on Goblin Assault, if the token created by Twin had haste as a copyable characteristic, the ability would/should be written:
Put a token with haste that's a copy of this creature onto the battlefield. Exile it at the beginning of the next end step.
or alternatively,
Put a token onto the battlefield that's a copy of this creature except that it has haste. Exile it at the beginning of the next end step.
MtG Rules Advisor &
Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJDJ VortexDCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320 Wit found in Rules Q&ARPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?" My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out
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6 months ago ::
Nov 24, 2012 - 12:18PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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can you please put the image in spoiler tags so the layout isn't ****ed up? strange that MTGO handles it that way, it's counter to what I assumed but I'll take it as an [O]-ruling until we get another one 
proud member of the 2011 community team
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6 months ago ::
Nov 24, 2012 - 12:58PM
#9
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- Celestial Teapots are broken!
Date Joined:
Feb 24, 2007
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I'd like an [O] answer, but I'm more inclined to see it as part of the copy effect than as an additional continuous effect. I do think the "has"/"gains" matters. Splinter Twin 's "has" is irrelevant; that's a static ability. For resolving spells/abilities, they almost always use "gains". The word "has" is only used when specifying characteristics of tokens. For example, the various Eldrazi Spawn generators (e.g. Awakening Zone  ) use it that way. The mana ability is an intrinsic part of the token; it's just in a separate sentence to make the text read better. I think the same would go for Heat Shimmer . It may be worth pointing out Impromptu Raid  , Puppeteer Clique  , Through the Breach  , and Treacherous Urge  . Those were printed with "has" but were changed to "gains", since there it is a separate continuous effect that's granting the haste. That they're still using "has" on Heat Shimmer is telling (assuming it's intentional, of course).
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6 months ago ::
Nov 24, 2012 - 1:16PM
#10
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- Niftily helpful
- DCI Level 2 Judge
Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2001
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Yes, both the haste and the "exile me" trigger are part of the copiable value (because of 706.9a). Populating a token made by Heat Shimmer means that the token copy will have haste and the "exile me" trigger.
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DCI Level 2 Judge
Questions don't have to make sense, but answers do.
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