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I have Infinite Reflection attached to a facedown Vesuvan Shapeshifter
and cast Fathom Seer facedown for .

When Seer enters the field it is facedown status, am I right in thinking that its facedown side is identical to its faceup side and it therefore doesn't have morph?

likewise changing Shapeshifter's status to faceup after Seer has entered the field won't change this either, right?

Seems all correct to me.

When Fathom Seer is face down, it'll be a 2/2 with no abilities because it is face down, not because it's a copy of your face-down Vesuvan Shapeshifter (the copy effect is there, but the face-down status takes precedence). You can turn it face up by gating two islands. That'll end the morph effect, but Infinite Reflection's copy effect still applies and it'll still be a 2/2 with no abilities. You won't get to draw two cards.

This is because the copy effect doesn't do anything to the side of the card that you can't see; the only rule that cares about that side at all is 702.35d, which allows you to turn it face up. That rule uses the wording "what the permanent’s morph cost would be if it were face up." Of course, if it really were face up, it wouldn't have a morph cost due to the copy effect -- but I don't think the current board state is considered when determining whether you're allowed to pay a morph cost.

Flipping Vesuvan Shapeshifter face up will have no effect on existing copies, and any permanents that enter face down will enter as 2/2s with no abilities that can flip face up to become copies of Vesuvan Shapeshifter -- provided that a morph cost is printed on the actual card's table-facing side (which is the cost you'll pay, not necessarily ).

rules Show

Nov 19, 2012 -- 9:28AM, Bowshewicz wrote:

This is because the copy effect doesn't do anything to the side of the card that you can't see; the only rule that cares about that side at all is 702.35d, which allows you to turn it face up. That rule uses the wording "what the permanent’s morph cost would be if it were face up." Of course, if it really were face up, it wouldn't have a morph cost due to the copy effect -- but I don't think the current board state is considered when determining whether you're allowed to pay a morph cost.

You do take the copy effect into account when determing what the morph cost would be. Indeed, you take all effects into account. In 2goth's scenario, the creature would not have morph while face up, and thus you cannot turn it face up.

Here are some other cases where it's quite important that you consider continuous effects:

• If you Clone a Wall of Deceit then turn the clone face down, clone can turn face up for
• If you have a face down morph and Humility is on the battlefield, the morph cannot turn face up
• Exiled Doomsayer doesn't work unless it's effect is allowed to be considered..

ok, ignoring Seer's facedown status what are its copiable values before applying the facedown status?
Wouldn't it be those that it acquired via the copy effect, those from the facedown Shapeshifter and therefore it'd have exactly the same characteristics faceup as facedown?

if so, it shouldn't have morph if you turn it faceup and therefore there is no morph cost to announce and you've just made an illegal action and have to reverse the play, right?

Face up, Fathom Seer would not have a morph cost due to the copy effect, so it cannot be turned face up via morph. Just like Humility makes it impossible to turn a morph critter face up via morph.

I find it strange that the current board state is considered when determining whether a permanent would have morph when face up.

Is there a rule that you guys can provide? I am sure that "morph cost printed on the opposite face" is not a copiable value. Does the text would have a morph cost imply that we should look into the future in this case?

707.8. As a face-down permanent is turned face up, its copiable values revert to its normal copiable values. Any effects that have been applied to the face-down permanent still apply to the face-up permanent. Any abilities relating to the permanent entering the battlefield don’t trigger and don’t have any effect, because the permanent has already entered the battlefield.

I'm not sure that I understand.

Are you saying that 702.35d implies that, in order to determine whether a morph cost could be paid, we determine what would occur if we followed the instructions in 707.8, and if the face up permanent would still have morph, a morph cost can then be paid?

This looks to me like the game would have to look into the future to make this determination. Is this an instance of the game looking to the future? If so, why? If not, how does the game know that the creature will not have morph when turned face up?

yes, the game looks into the future for Morph
since facedown cards do not have Morph it won't work any other way

Oh, ok. I thought it just looked to see if the other side of the card had morph, and sort of sidestepped the messiness with objects and permanents and looking forward in time.

So what would happen if I Cloned a face up Grinning Demon , and then both were turned face-down by Ixidron . Could I then pay to turn my clone face up?

Yes.

Nov 19, 2012 -- 11:41AM, Bowshewicz wrote:

So what would happen if I Cloned a face up Grinning Demon , and then both were turned face-down by Ixidron . Could I then pay to turn my clone face up?

Yes. The game looks at what the clone would be if it were face up, including the copy effect, and sees that it would have Morph . Thus, you can turn it face up for .

(i mentioned a similar scenario earlier with clone + Wall of Deceit )

hmm, ok, fair enough. I still find it odd, but I can see now that that's just how it works.

I suppose that this does allow for some theoretical ability like "All creatures have Morph " to work and be neatly templated. The looking into the future thing makes me a bit uncomfortable, but it is what it is.

if "looking into the future" makes you uncomfortable think of it as "trial and error"
you try to turn the creature face up, notice it doesn't have morph, and rewind

The rule that boshewicz is looking for is this one:

702.35d. If you have priority, you may turn a face-down permanent you control face up. This is a special action; it doesn't use the stack (see rule 115). To do this, show all players what the permanent's morph cost would be if it were face up, pay that cost, then turn the permanent face up. (If the permanent wouldn't have a morph cost if it were face up, it can't be turned face up this way.) The morph effect on it ends, and it regains its normal characteristics. Any abilities relating to the permanent entering the battlefield don't trigger when it's turned face up and don't have any effect, because the permanent has already entered the battlefield.

706.3. (...) Example: A face-down Grinning Demon (a creature with morph) becomes a copy of Wandering Ones (a 1/1 blue Spirit creature that doesn’t have morph). It will be a face-down Wandering Ones. It remains a 2/2 colorless creature with no name, types, or abilities, and no mana cost. Its controller can’t turn it face up as a special action...

Nov 19, 2012 -- 9:46AM, cyphern wrote:

In 2goth's scenario, the creature would not have morph while face up, and thus you cannot turn it face up.

Though on a similar note, if you Mirrorweave d a Grinning Demon while you had four face down creatures in play, you'd be able to turn them face up for and they'd be grinning demons until end of turn, right?

that seems correct to me