Community

I have Infinite Reflection attached to a facedown Vesuvan Shapeshifter
and cast Fathom Seer facedown for .

When Seer enters the field it is facedown status, am I right in thinking that its facedown side is identical to its faceup side and it therefore doesn't have morph?

likewise changing Shapeshifter's status to faceup after Seer has entered the field won't change this either, right?

When Fathom Seer is face down, it'll be a 2/2 with no abilities because it is face down, not because it's a copy of your face-down Vesuvan Shapeshifter (the copy effect is there, but the face-down status takes precedence). You can turn it face up by gating two islands. That'll end the morph effect, but Infinite Reflection's copy effect still applies and it'll still be a 2/2 with no abilities. You won't get to draw two cards.

This is because the copy effect doesn't do anything to the side of the card that you can't see; the only rule that cares about that side at all is 702.35d, which allows you to turn it face up. That rule uses the wording "what the permanent’s morph cost would be if it were face up." Of course, if it really were face up, it wouldn't have a morph cost due to the copy effect -- but I don't think the current board state is considered when determining whether you're allowed to pay a morph cost.

Flipping Vesuvan Shapeshifter face up will have no effect on existing copies, and any permanents that enter face down will enter as 2/2s with no abilities that can flip face up to become copies of Vesuvan Shapeshifter -- provided that a morph cost is printed on the actual card's table-facing side (which is the cost you'll pay, not necessarily ).

rules Show

ok, ignoring Seer's facedown status what are its copiable values before applying the facedown status?
Wouldn't it be those that it acquired via the copy effect, those from the facedown Shapeshifter and therefore it'd have exactly the same characteristics faceup as facedown?

if so, it shouldn't have morph if you turn it faceup and therefore there is no morph cost to announce and you've just made an illegal action and have to reverse the play, right?

I find it strange that the current board state is considered when determining whether a permanent would have morph when face up.

Is there a rule that you guys can provide? I am sure that "morph cost printed on the opposite face" is not a copiable value. Does the text would have a morph cost imply that we should look into the future in this case?

I'm not sure that I understand.

Are you saying that 702.35d implies that, in order to determine whether a morph cost could be paid, we determine what would occur if we followed the instructions in 707.8, and if the face up permanent would still have morph, a morph cost can then be paid?

This looks to me like the game would have to look into the future to make this determination. Is this an instance of the game looking to the future? If so, why? If not, how does the game know that the creature will not have morph when turned face up?