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Nov 18, 2012 -- 9:29AM, champoo wrote:

Insurrection and then Sundial of the Infinite < /span> let me keep everything forever, right?

Nope. You still lose control of the creatures when your turn ends with Sundial.

Sundial's rulings:

 9/22/2011    Ending the turn this way means the following things happen in order: 1) All spells and abilities on the stack are exiled. This includes spells and abilities that can't be countered. 2) All attacking and blocking creatures are removed from combat. 3) State-based actions are checked. No player gets priority, and no triggered abilities are put onto the stack. 4) The current phase and/or step ends. The game skips straight to the cleanup step. The cleanup step happens in its entirety.

You lose control of the creatures in the Cleanup step (you also discard down to maximum hand size and damage marked on creatures is removed during this step).

Sundial works well with effects worded "at the beginning of the next end step", as these are delayed triggered abilities that use the stack (ending the turn in response exiles the ability from the stack)

Durations of "until end of turn" or "this turn" still ends when the turn ends.

Nov 18, 2012 -- 9:37AM, champoo wrote:

on gatherer for sundial it says,

If Sundial of the Infinite's ability is activated before the end step, any "at the beginning of the end step"-triggered abilities won't get the chance to trigger that turn because the end step is skipped. Those abilities will trigger at the beginning of the end step of the next turn. The same is true of abilities that trigger at the beginning of other phases or steps (except upkeep).

so does that mean it would be the next players end step or am i reading that wrong?

Yes, the next end step will be the one of the next turn, no matter which player takes that turn.

Just in case, this has no bearing on Insurrection , which doesn't create a triggered ability.

Nov 18, 2012 -- 9:37AM, champoo wrote:

on gatherer for sundial it says,

If Sundial of the Infinite's ability is activated before the end step, any "at the beginning of the end step"-triggered abilities won't get the chance to trigger that turn because the end step is skipped. Those abilities will trigger at the beginning of the end step of the next turn. The same is true of abilities that trigger at the beginning of other phases or steps (except upkeep).

so does that mean it would be the next players end step or am i reading that wrong?

Yes, in the next player's turn's end step - unless that end step is also skipped, in that cause it waits the following turn, and so on, until an end step actually starts...

Of course, this is if you use Sundial before the end step starts. If you let the end step start, the delayed trigger goes to the stack, and then you use the Sundial's ability, the trigger will be removed from the stack and won't trigger again in the next turn.

Nov 18, 2012 -- 9:43AM, champoo wrote:

ya, i realize it says "end of turn" not "end step"

It's more about the "until end of turn" (effect's duration) not "at the end step" (delayed trigger). Old cards printed with "at end of turn" work as end step trigger not cleanup step duration.