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Flag stepintherift November 17, 2012 3:05 PM PST
I tried a pretty straightforward build, but still, it seems... all over the place. Don't get me wrong, it works and I won a fair share of games running this, but I feel it isn't consistent enough. I need help making it a bit more reliable. Here is what I've got thus far.

4 x Rakdos Cackler
2 x Stromkirk Noble
2 x Stonewright
4 x Ash Zealot
4 x Lightning Mauler
4 x Hellrider

4 x Searing Spear
4 x Pillar of Flame
4 x Brimstone Volley

4 x Furor of the Bitten
2 x Mark of Mutiny

18 x Mountain
2 x Hellion Crucible


Stonewright - not amazing, but still can push through a lot of damage
Lightning Mauler - again, not amazing, but with what could I replace him with?
Furor of the Bitten - great card overall
Mark of Mutiny - the only counter I could think of to Thragtusk
Hellion Crucible - for all those pesky board cleaners


As always, any and all suggestions are welcome!
Flag stepintherift November 17, 2012 3:15 PM PST
Also, I haen't thought of a stable sideboard yet, but it would probably include things like Flames of the Firebrand , Traitorous Blood , Volcanic Strenght , Reverberate , maybe even Vexing Devil .

Needless to say, I would appreciate help with the sideboard too. 
Flag Catotheyounger November 18, 2012 1:48 AM PST
I wouldn't run furor of the bitten, because a lot of the time they'll kill your creature and deal with 2 (the enchantment and the creature) of your cards with 1 of theirs.  I'd run annihilating fire instead.
Flag stepintherift November 18, 2012 2:37 AM PST
I tried running more burn, including Annihilating Fire . The only redeeming factor to it is that it exiles creatures. I would run it in zombie matchups, but otherwise, I don't think so. 12 burns is quite enough.

Your argument on Furor of the Bitten is valid, though. The cool part about it is that it puts my creatures out of the range of pillar of flame (and even searing spear in some cases), which are by far the most common creature removals. Also, if you enchant Ash Zealot , you get a 4/4 with first strike, which beats most creatures aggro/midrange decks use. Still, getting 2-for-1'd is never good.
Flag MtgElf21 November 18, 2012 2:51 AM PST
I am planning to build a similar deck to play until gatecrash comes out...but i am on a budget and i will spend about 15-20$ for  a play set of Ash Zealot this leaves me without any more $$$ to spend on cards like Hellrider so what 4drops are viable in this deck except Hellrider ??

Also about your deck i think that you can try Gore-House Chainwalker or Rakdos Shred-Freak instead of Lightning Mauler  

Flag stepintherift November 18, 2012 3:51 AM PST
Hellrider is soooo good, I doubt you could find a substitute for him. Basically, the trun you play him is the turn you win in 80% of cases. But still, a budget is a budget. You could always try running things like Hound of Griselbrand , Bloodfray Giant or Archwing Dragon . They are pretty much your only cheaper alternatives. 
Flag MtgElf21 November 18, 2012 4:36 AM PST

www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/35...


Here is the deck im thinking to use check it you might get some ideas :D


Flag Wynzerman November 18, 2012 4:47 AM PST
Stonewright is bad with only 20 lands, and I'm fairly certain that Hellrider is difficult to cast on time. I think this deck falls into the RDW trap of "draw nuts or die" deck design.

Stromkirk Noble is bad against most of the established decks in the format, while snowballing is nice, turn 4 Thragtusk is bigger and meaner than a fed Noble. and the lifegain undoes 2-3 turns of work the noble does.
Flag pzbw7z November 18, 2012 8:41 AM PST

Nov 18, 2012 -- 4:47AM, Wynzerman wrote:

Stromkirk Noble is bad against most of the established decks in the format, while snowballing is nice, turn 4 Thragtusk is bigger and meaner than a fed Noble. and the lifegain undoes 2-3 turns of work the noble does.




Just what one-drop do you think is good against Thragtusk ?

Flag stepintherift November 18, 2012 9:01 AM PST

Nov 18, 2012 -- 4:47AM, Wynzerman wrote:

Stonewright is bad with only 20 lands, and I'm fairly certain that Hellrider is difficult to cast on time. I think this deck falls into the RDW trap of "draw nuts or die" deck design.

Stromkirk Noble is bad against most of the established decks in the format, while snowballing is nice, turn 4 Thragtusk is bigger and meaner than a fed Noble. and the lifegain undoes 2-3 turns of work the noble does.




Thanks! Any suggestions?

Also, as the person above me said, you are comparing a one-drop to Thragtusk, which isn't the fairest comparision. 

Flag Catotheyounger November 18, 2012 1:55 PM PST
Oh yeah, I just noticed your land count.  You should probably add 2 more, given that you have 4 hellriders and 4 brimstone volleys.

Also, to whoever asked, archwing dragon is a great hellrider substitute.  It flies over thragtusks, and they can't hit it with detention sphere s, sever the bloodline s, or supreme verdict s. 
Flag BigK42 November 18, 2012 3:20 PM PST
Also, stonewright is totally fine with 20 lands.  He's a huge pain for control decks because he ends up being a bigger threat than whatever creature you're using him to pump.  Even against aggro he's pretty good because he forces your opponent to consider blocking.  He also gives you a way to do damage without using whatever's in your hand as a resource.  It's very advantageous to do as much damage with your early drops as you can before you have to start using burn.  There are a lot of good turn 1-2 plays using stonewright.

If you're going to use gore-house chainwalker , I would use lightning mauler over rakdos shred-freak
Flag MrIndigo November 18, 2012 3:49 PM PST
I would genuinely prefer Archwing Dragon over Hellrider at the moment. He dodges Wraths and spheres, he doesn't die to Thragtusk, he doesn't die to Restoration Angel or GW Humans and he encourages U/x to keep counterspells in when they're not that strong (even better with Cavern).
Flag Catotheyounger November 18, 2012 4:08 PM PST

Nov 18, 2012 -- 3:49PM, MrIndigo wrote:

I would genuinely prefer Archwing Dragon over Hellrider at the moment. He dodges Wraths and spheres, he doesn't die to Thragtusk, he doesn't die to Restoration Angel or GW Humans and he encourages U/x to keep counterspells in when they're not that strong (even better with Cavern).



Agreed.  Like the only things that can deal with it are thundermaw, aristocrat, a pumped Olivia, an angel of serenity, ultimate price, or a counterspell.  I think it might be the best option even when you aren't under budget constraints.

Flag felisdomesticus November 18, 2012 4:17 PM PST
Why are you even TRYING to be helpful?  This guy is running furor of the bitten.  FUROR OF THE BITTEN! 
Flag Catotheyounger November 18, 2012 4:32 PM PST
Which is why I suggested that he NOT run furor of the bitten.  The rest of his list actually looks pretty good.
Flag p0p3l1n3ss November 18, 2012 5:03 PM PST
I fail to see why furor is so bad. It's reds' rancor without trample and give +2 toughness. Yeah, you can't block, but it is my understanding that you don't really want to block often in a RDW build. Or am I wrong?
Flag felisdomesticus November 18, 2012 5:42 PM PST

Nov 18, 2012 -- 5:03PM, p0p3l1n3ss wrote:

I fail to see why furor is so bad. It's reds' rancor without trample and give +2 toughness. Yeah, you can't block, but it is my understanding that you don't really want to block often in a RDW build. Or am I wrong?



...
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..... 

Flag BigK42 November 18, 2012 5:48 PM PST
To be fair, with all the sorcery speed removal floating around, furor is often no worse than a pillar to the face, and can have significant upside against opposing aggro decks that are using red burn spells as situational removal.  That said, it's more of a sideboard than a main deck card. 
Flag tehbeast November 18, 2012 6:01 PM PST
I like The Aristocrats over Hell's Angels.
Flag BigK42 November 18, 2012 6:06 PM PST

Nov 18, 2012 -- 6:01PM, tehbeast wrote:

I like The Aristocrats over Hell's Angels.




Yeah, he's going all red though.  It's getting to the point where archwing dragon vs. falkenrath aristocrat vs. olivia voldaren is more a meta call.  Dragon is better vs. control and olivia is useful as psuedo removal vs. opposing olivias in jund.  Aristocrat is probably the more powerful card overall, especially if you're running humans to pitch to it, or can use it in conjunction with traitorous blood or similar effects.

Flag felisdomesticus November 18, 2012 6:21 PM PST

Nov 18, 2012 -- 5:48PM, BigK42 wrote:

To be fair, with all the sorcery speed removal floating around, furor is often no worse than a pillar to the face, and can have significant upside against opposing aggro decks that are using red burn spells as situational removal.  That said, it's more of a sideboard than a main deck card. 



1:  pillar is to the face is pretty mediocre.
2:  thragtusk can't block pillar of flame. 

Flag BigK42 November 18, 2012 6:34 PM PST

Nov 18, 2012 -- 6:21PM, felisdomesticus wrote:

Nov 18, 2012 -- 5:48PM, BigK42 wrote:

To be fair, with all the sorcery speed removal floating around, furor is often no worse than a pillar to the face, and can have significant upside against opposing aggro decks that are using red burn spells as situational removal.  That said, it's more of a sideboard than a main deck card. 



1:  pillar is to the face is pretty mediocre.
2:  thragtusk can't block pillar of flame. 




That's why I say it's a sideboard card.  Playing it vs. thragtusk decks is suboptimal.

Flag Minervas_touch November 18, 2012 6:40 PM PST
Hate to say it ^ but your two points contradicted themselves.

Point 1, pillar to the face is pretty mediocre

point 2. Pillar is unblockable and gets through thragtusk

So your overall argument is hey even though pillar is mediocre, it gets past thragtustk...?

I am just trying to follow your logic there, I don't think the enchantment is great by any means but... I don't think its unplayable.
Flag felisdomesticus November 18, 2012 6:56 PM PST
My point is that pillar is mediocre, even when it bypasses tusk, so a "pillar" that can't bypass tusk is complete ****.
Flag tehbeast November 18, 2012 8:58 PM PST
But it beats the **** out of Geistflame, so Pillar away!
Flag stepintherift November 18, 2012 9:02 PM PST
If furor is actually THAT bad, mind giving any alternatives? Should I add some more 1/2/3 cmc creatures? More burn? Splash green for Thragtusk? 

Pointing out problems in my deck without mentioning solutions to said problems doesn't really help all that much.
Flag tehbeast November 18, 2012 9:06 PM PST
I personally like a burn package of 4 Pillar of Flame , 4 Searing Spear and 4 Brimstone Volley , with 2 Bonfire of the Damned from the 'board.

Furor isn't so bad, I guess, just seems janky as all hell. Like Crippling Blight . Just thinking about it makes me sad, but apparently it's playable against Thragtusk .

I'd still splash black for Falkenrath Aristocrat because indestructible flying Lightning Elemental is good, I hear. Also lets you have a pair of Olivia Voldaren out the 'board vs. aggro and Rites.
Flag p0p3l1n3ss November 18, 2012 9:24 PM PST
Once you start adding colors though, it's no longer RDW.
Flag tehbeast November 18, 2012 9:43 PM PST
No, it's still RDW, except that it wins more because flying + haste + indestructable.

Is Zombies no longer Zombies when it splashes a colour?
Flag CarbonatedSoda November 19, 2012 3:59 AM PST

Nov 18, 2012 -- 9:43PM, tehbeast wrote:

No, it's still RDW, except that it wins more because flying + haste + indestructable.

Is Zombies no longer Zombies when it splashes a colour?




No but that isn't similar. RDW stands for RED DECK WINS. If the deck is other colors, it isn't RDW anymore than a deck running thoughtscours is a mill deck. A deck running Olivias and Falkenraths isn't really how current standard RDW operates.

Theres no reason to go R/B in my opinion. R/B Aggro is different in play entirely from RDW.

I'd personally rather use Archwing Dragon or Thundermaw Hellkite over Falkenrath.

As for the OP. Look into Pyreheart Wolf

I'd also go with 22 or so lands.

Also in response to Furor of the Bitten as a sideboard card. I'd personally prefer Volcanic Strength . With Blood Crypt and Steam vents in standard, it's fairly useful.

Flag BigK42 November 19, 2012 4:17 AM PST

No but that isn't similar. RDW stands for RED DECK WINS. If the deck is other colors, it isn't RDW anymore than a deck running thoughtscours is a mill deck. A deck running Olivias and Falkenraths isn't really how current standard RDW operates.

Theres no reason to go R/B in my opinion. R/B Aggro is different in play entirely from RDW.




Zombie decks are running aristocrat.  Does having a vampire make them not zombies?

Given how easy it is to splash a color, I don't see any reason not to.  RDW and rakdos aggro play exactly the same game, and use ~80 to 90% of the same cards to do it.

The black splash gives you rakdos charm , falkenrath aristocrat , dreadbore , slaughter games , olivia voldaren , rakdos's return , and knight of infamy .

There's a good bit of power in those cards.  By going pure red you'll just be trying to find red cards to try to do the same things, but not as well.  You can do it, but why work harder than you have to?

Flag stepintherift November 19, 2012 5:31 AM PST
I will not be splashing black. In my opinion, it kills the entire purpose of RDW...


Changes so far:

-4 Furor of the Bitten
-1 Hellrider

+1 Mountain
+1 Hellion Crucible
+3 Pyreheart Wolf (completely forgot about this one)


Also, a sideboard is starting to take shape.

4x Archwing Dragon (against control decks with sorcery-speed removal)
4x Furor of the Bitten OR 4x Volcanic Strength (still not sure which one to use)
3x Flames of the Firebrand
2x Reverberate
2x Annihilating Fire


Finally, is Thundermaw Hellkite as good as he looks? I don't own any at the moment, but I could be able to trade for a few copies of it if it would be an asset to my deck.
Flag Chiaelvis November 19, 2012 3:47 PM PST
Hey stepintherift -

I read through this thread and saw so much bad advice that I decided to post an essay on RDW over on the Tier 2 forum, you should check it out. It seems to me that there are a lot of people posting advice for archtypes that they do not play personally. I say this because when I read the advice I know that the commenters must not be playing RDW, if they were then they would know better.

Decrease the number of Furor you are using, don't get rid of it and leave them in the mainboard.
Get rid of the crucibles, you don't need them.

You have too many 4-drops. Don't rely on Archwing Dragon against control - your deck is built to fry control and on average Hellrider does more damage before the end of the game. Think of Archwing as almost a 'win more' card vs control. The job gets done with Hellrider and he sticks around to soak up that removal instead of your beefed up Noble or Cackler with furor - those guys win the game for you on Turn 5.

Reverberate can be a dead draw, something you cannot afford with a RDW deck, so you need to get rid of it.
Thundermaw Hellkite is a good card, just not for this archtype - his too expensive (too much mana to cast).
Flag BigK42 November 19, 2012 5:00 PM PST

I read through this thread and saw so much bad advice that I decided to post an essay on RDW over on the Tier 2 forum, you should check it out. It seems to me that there are a lot of people posting advice for archtypes that they do not play personally. I say this because when I read the advice I know that the commenters must not be playing RDW, if they were then they would know better.

Decrease the number of Furor you are using, don't get rid of it and leave them in the mainboard.
Get rid of the crucibles, you don't need them.

You have too many 4-drops. Don't rely on Archwing Dragon against control - your deck is built to fry control and on average Hellrider does more damage before the end of the game. Think of Archwing as almost a 'win more' card vs control. The job gets done with Hellrider and he sticks around to soak up that removal instead of your beefed up Noble or Cackler with furor - those guys win the game for you on Turn 5.

Reverberate can be a dead draw, something you cannot afford with a RDW deck, so you need to get rid of it.
Thundermaw Hellkite is a good card, just not for this archtype - his too expensive (too much mana to cast).




I disagree with most of this.  Archwing is not at all win more, except in the sense that he helps you to win more games.  Dodging sorcery speed removal is extremely relevant in this format, and hellrider is often nothing more than a lightning bolt vs. thragtusk decks.  If anything, Hellrider is win more because if you have enough board presence to take advantage of his ability, you're probably already winning.

Reverberate is a card that you need in order to stay even with bant decks, or to neutralize cards that you would otherwise be dead to.  They're a great sideboard card, but I wouldn't run more than 2, MAYBE 3.

Furor is a sideboard card vs. aggro.  loxodon smiter is good vs. them, and so is furor.  Vs. a bant deck, you;re 2 for 1-ing yourself.

Flag tehbeast November 19, 2012 5:37 PM PST
Tested a red-base aggro deck with Hellhole Flailer and Lightning Mauler. It's a lot of fun when it works, but I just prefer Giraffe Mess et al. Ass Zealot is super-nice, but I really want a set of Koi more.

Unless we get some SERIOUS mono red love under the banner(s) of Boros/Gruul, I'm sticking with black-base. Still like having 12 burn spells though, but the lack of instant R burn is killing me.
Flag Weisse November 19, 2012 7:00 PM PST
Volcanic Strength is generally better than Furor of the Bitten as a sideboard card, as it is much, much better in the cases that you would want to side it in (mirror match, primarily). is a small price to pay for being out of burn range and unblockable.
Flag Chiaelvis November 19, 2012 8:25 PM PST

Nov 19, 2012 -- 5:00PM, BigK42 wrote:

I read through this thread and saw so much bad advice that I decided to post an essay on RDW over on the Tier 2 forum, you should check it out. It seems to me that there are a lot of people posting advice for archtypes that they do not play personally. I say this because when I read the advice I know that the commenters must not be playing RDW, if they were then they would know better.

Decrease the number of Furor you are using, don't get rid of it and leave them in the mainboard.
Get rid of the crucibles, you don't need them.

You have too many 4-drops. Don't rely on Archwing Dragon against control - your deck is built to fry control and on average Hellrider does more damage before the end of the game. Think of Archwing as almost a 'win more' card vs control. The job gets done with Hellrider and he sticks around to soak up that removal instead of your beefed up Noble or Cackler with furor - those guys win the game for you on Turn 5.

Reverberate can be a dead draw, something you cannot afford with a RDW deck, so you need to get rid of it.
Thundermaw Hellkite is a good card, just not for this archtype - his too expensive (too much mana to cast).




I disagree with most of this.  Archwing is not at all win more, except in the sense that he helps you to win more games.  Dodging sorcery speed removal is extremely relevant in this format, and hellrider is often nothing more than a lightning bolt vs. thragtusk decks.  If anything, Hellrider is win more because if you have enough board presence to take advantage of his ability, you're probably already winning.

Reverberate is a card that you need in order to stay even with bant decks, or to neutralize cards that you would otherwise be dead to.  They're a great sideboard card, but I wouldn't run more than 2, MAYBE 3.

Furor is a sideboard card vs. aggro.  loxodon smiter is good vs. them, and so is furor.  Vs. a bant deck, you;re 2 for 1-ing yourself.




 Yes, dodging sorcery speed removal is important in this format, I just don't think it's that important for this deck. You are not going to be able to stop a Dreadbore unless you have the dragon, but if you wait for that then you are dead. Versus control - RDW should have them dead by Turn 5 without much of a problem, Archwing Dragon or not. Versus other archtypes that use sorcery speed removal, those players tend to use those spells long before Turn 5 when you drop your 4-Drop.

As far as spell doublers, what happens when you topdeck your spell doubler but have no burn in hand? It's called a dead draw. Give me any other card, creature or burn, over a dead draw any day of the week. Nice when you can use them, but a stinky turd when there is no burn in your hand, or when you don't have the 2 extra mana to tap to use it. Stinky - Turd.

I will trade a cackler with furor on it to take a smiter off the battlefield any day of the week, especially before it has a chance to pair with a  Silverblade Paladin . But chances are, a player that has the paladin in their hand is not going to use the smiter to block before the pairing. That's when you Pillar the paladin. 

If you are playing  Archwing Dragon or Hellrider then your game is running long and you need to end it, now. As a 4-drop in a deck that rarely gets one mana per turn you are looking at Turn 5 on average - if your game is going to Turn 6 then chances are you are losing or you're stalled. The dragon does not get you out of the stall or protect you from that thragtusk. But the Hellrider is not this deck's solution to the thragtusk either. The solution to the tusk is to steal it, Traitorous Blood , Traitorous Instinct , or Mark of Mutiny - listed in my order of preference, swing with it, and then burn it to death so you get the token. If you have the mana for the dragon you have the mana for T.Blood and a Pillar. You steal the tusk and swing, they chump and you pillar - problem solved. If they don't chump then they lose the 5 life they gained from the tusk. If you have a Hellrider on the field when this happens then chances are you just won the game. I've tested the dragon vs the devil quite a bit and I am much happier with the devil because of its additional damage ability, I find damage much more rewarding than the possiblity of dodging sorcery speed removal that control decks use. Control decks that should be dead by then anyway. Really, versus control I sideboard out the cacklers and sideboard in Nivmagus Elemental - then again, you could put a furor on him and then exile a pillar to him and that thragtusk can suck an egg as well.

Flag CarbonatedSoda November 20, 2012 1:56 AM PST

Nov 19, 2012 -- 4:17AM, BigK42 wrote:

No but that isn't similar. RDW stands for RED DECK WINS. If the deck is other colors, it isn't RDW anymore than a deck running thoughtscours is a mill deck. A deck running Olivias and Falkenraths isn't really how current standard RDW operates.

Theres no reason to go R/B in my opinion. R/B Aggro is different in play entirely from RDW.




Zombie decks are running aristocrat.  Does having a vampire make them not zombies?

Given how easy it is to splash a color, I don't see any reason not to.  RDW and rakdos aggro play exactly the same game, and use ~80 to 90% of the same cards to do it.

The black splash gives you rakdos charm , falkenrath aristocrat , dreadbore , slaughter games , olivia voldaren , rakdos's return , and knight of infamy .

There's a good bit of power in those cards.  By going pure red you'll just be trying to find red cards to try to do the same things, but not as well.  You can do it, but why work harder than you have to?




Because RDW is perfectly capable this format if you know how to play it.

RDW is not B/R just as Esper Tokens is not G/W Tokens.They may play somewhat similarly but they really aren't interchangable or the same and I see no reason to try and shoo people away from RDW as it works just fine. And again, I'd much rather use Thundermaw Hellkite , Hellrider , even Archwing dragon , over an aristocrat.

Now more on topic to the general theme of RED deck wins. What is everyones general opinion on sideboard spot between Mizzium Mortars/card] and [card]Thunderbolt . I know most will instantly write out thunderbolt but the fact it's not a sorcery, can hit the face, and can deal with 4 toughness fliers makes me heavily consider it over Mortars (which cannot hit the face, is sorcery speed removal, and it's overload ability won't be used all that often in the relatively low mana curve of most RDW).

Flag Anubuss November 20, 2012 7:54 AM PST
Thunderbolt VS Mortars:

It really does boil down to what you perfer.  Do you want to be able to dome their Restoration Angel when it Flashes in?  Of do you just want more SB removal?  Thunderbolt does have a lot going for it, instant, can be reach, and hits 4 thoughness flyers.  Mortars has a little less going for it, mostly just the 4 damage to any creature.  However, the fact that it can hit any creature is a pretty big check in it's favor.

I'd say it boils down to what you expect to face and what you really want it to do.  If you really only care about Restoration Angel, Thunderbolt all the way.  However if you expect to see Smiter, or don't quite know that to expect to face, Mortars is a safer bet.

I go with Mortars mostly because I don't know how many times I've drawn a Thunderbolt while playing Aggro and really wanted to remove some annoying blocker (Usually it's a Centaur Healer, or other 3 thoughness creature, but I just didn't have a Spear) but couldn't because Thunderbolt couldn't hit it.

@CarbonatedSoda

Why would you rather have Hellrider or Archwing of Aristocrat?  I can see a case be made for the dragon since it'll dodge sorcery-speed removal, but Aristocrat will dodge any non-Exile removal, while Archwing is vulnerable to Thunderbolt/Ultamite Price. 

Hellrider is solid, and a fine choice for mono-Red, but he leads you into the mind set of over extending prior to dropping him, which can be a real set back in the face of a miricaled Terminus or Verdict. 

Hellrider VS Archwing is an interesting debate for mono-Red, but if you're already in Black, Aristocrat seems like the superior choice as it dodges most removal as long as you have another beater (which as Aggro, you should have 1 or 2 to spare), and it's hastey and evasive and unlike Archwing, you don't need to re-cast it every turn.

I neglected Thundermaw because as a 5-drop it's harder to play in Aggro and thus will come out after any of the 4-drops have had a chance to swing at least once.  If your deck can consistantly drop Thundermaw on turn 5, you're building more of a mid-range deck, which is moving away from traditional RDW.
Flag VRdragoon November 20, 2012 8:22 AM PST

Nov 19, 2012 -- 5:37PM, tehbeast wrote:

Tested a red-base aggro deck with Hellhole Flailer and Lightning Mauler. It's a lot of fun when it works, but I just prefer Giraffe Mess et al. Ass Zealot is super-nice, but I really want a set of Koi more.

Unless we get some SERIOUS mono red love under the banner(s) of Boros/Gruul, I'm sticking with black-base. Still like having 12 burn spells though, but the lack of instant R burn is killing me.




Giraffe Mess is my new name for every deck ever.

Thank you auto-correct. 

Flag Chiaelvis November 20, 2012 8:53 AM PST
@Carbonated Soda - Sounds to me like you answered your own question. The only thing that makes mortars any good is its boardwipe Overload ability but with a RDW build when are you going to have the mana available to overload it? RDW is a race car and it's in the red - waiting to Overload sounds like a real disaster with a race car. You already listed all of Thunderbolt 's advantages over Mizzium Mortars in this build and I think that speaks for itself. To me the mortars just seem to be another attempt to use more expensive cards when you really don't want or need to.
Flag mallrat November 20, 2012 10:41 AM PST
This one I saw played well. He was undefeated and now settled for 5th at SCG Invitational Antioch

Creatures
4 Ash Zealot
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Hellrider
4 Pyreheart Wolf
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Thundermaw Hellkite

Instants
4 Searing Spear

Sorceries
3 Pillar of Flame

Basic Lands
22 Mountain

Lands
3 Hellion Crucible

Sideboard:
3 Hound of Griselbrand
3 Reverberate
2 Thunderbolt
4 Flames of the Firebrand
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Pillar of Flame
Flag clutch_nugget November 20, 2012 11:43 AM PST

Nov 20, 2012 -- 10:41AM, mallrat wrote:

This one I saw played well. He was undefeated and now settled for 5th at SCG Invitational Antioch

Creatures
4 Ash Zealot
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Hellrider
4 Pyreheart Wolf
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Thundermaw Hellkite

Instants
4 Searing Spear

Sorceries
3 Pillar of Flame

Basic Lands
22 Mountain

Lands
3 Hellion Crucible

Sideboard:
3 Hound of Griselbrand
3 Reverberate
2 Thunderbolt
4 Flames of the Firebrand
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Pillar of Flame


I suppose Hound of Griselbrand is anti-Thragtusk sideboard tech?

Flag stepintherift November 20, 2012 11:47 AM PST
Thanks to all for helping me out. I got my deck at a way more reliable state than my intial build. The new list is:

4 x Rakdos Cackler
2 x Stonewright
2 x Stromkirk Noble
4 x Ash Zealot
4 x Rakdos Shred-Freak
2 x Pyreheart Wolf
3 x Hellrider

4 x Pillar of Flame
4 x Searing Spear
2 x Brimstone Volley
1 x Thunderous Wrath
4 x Furor of the Bitten
3 x Traitorous Blood

22 x Mountain



I had all day yesterday to playtest and here are the conclusions I got to:

1. Furor of the Bitten is going right back in the mainboard.
2. Hellion Crucible , although nice against board sweepers, slows you down way to much to be worth it.
3. Lightning Mauler is not bad, but as Chiaelvis said 'haste is better than soulbound haste'. I use to disaggree, but after aditional testing I found out that the Lightning Mauler gets in the way of Stonewright too often, so Rakdos Shred-Freak it is.
4. Traitorous Blood instead of Mark of Mutiny . Trample is more relevant than a +1/+1 counter (which may come back and bite you later).
5. Brimstone Volley is pretty bad. I think I will switch it for Flames of the Firebrand or Lightning Bolt , but I'm still not certain.
6. Pyreheart Wolf is pretty much a wincon on it own. Same goes for Hellrider .

Still, the deck is far from perfect, so criticism is always welcome!
Flag tehbeast November 20, 2012 11:47 AM PST
Wasn't auto-correct, I want cute nicknames for all my favourite cards.
Flag BigK42 November 20, 2012 2:36 PM PST

Hellrider is solid, and a fine choice for mono-Red, but he leads you into the mind set of over extending prior to dropping him, which can be a real set back in the face of a miricaled Terminus or Verdict. 

Hellrider VS Archwing is an interesting debate for mono-Red, but if you're already in Black, Aristocrat seems like the superior choice as it dodges most removal as long as you have another beater (which as Aggro, you should have 1 or 2 to spare), and it's hastey and evasive and unlike Archwing, you don't need to re-cast it every turn.

I neglected Thundermaw because as a 5-drop it's harder to play in Aggro and thus will come out after any of the 4-drops have had a chance to swing at least once.  If your deck can consistantly drop Thundermaw on turn 5, you're building more of a mid-range deck, which is moving away from traditional RDW.




That's pretty much my take on it as well.  Although I see RDW evolving into a slightly more midrange deck as a reaction to a grindy meta that uses super value landbound creatures.  Archwing dragon and Thundermaw hellkite are great in that environment, and can help to close out games that would otherwise be unwinnable by a more traditional RDW.

With thragtusk around in multiple decks, your games are going to go longer than you might want.  I think you have to plan for that, and not just say "well I'll win by turn 4, so it won't matter."  Not that you're saying that, but it's a trap that RDW builders might fall into by following the formula that worked in previous metas.

Flag drcarl November 20, 2012 6:12 PM PST

Nov 20, 2012 -- 11:47AM, stepintherift wrote:

Thanks to all for helping me out. I got my deck at a way more reliable state than my intial build. The new list is:

4 x Rakdos Cackler
2 x Stonewright
2 x Stromkirk Noble
4 x Ash Zealot
4 x Rakdos Shred-Freak
2 x Pyreheart Wolf
3 x Hellrider

4 x Pillar of Flame
4 x Searing Spear
2 x Brimstone Volley
1 x Thunderous Wrath
4 x Furor of the Bitten
3 x Traitorous Blood

22 x Mountain



I had all day yesterday to playtest and here are the conclusions I got to:

1. Furor of the Bitten is going right back in the mainboard.
2. Hellion Crucible , although nice against board sweepers, slows you down way to much to be worth it.
3. Lightning Mauler is not bad, but as Chiaelvis said 'haste is better than soulbound haste'. I use to disaggree, but after aditional testing I found out that the Lightning Mauler gets in the way of Stonewright too often, so Rakdos Shred-Freak it is.
4. Traitorous Blood instead of Mark of Mutiny . Trample is more relevant than a +1/+1 counter (which may come back and bite you later).
5. Brimstone Volley is pretty bad. I think I will switch it for Flames of the Firebrand or Lightning Bolt , but I'm still not certain.
6. Pyreheart Wolf is pretty much a wincon on it own. Same goes for Hellrider .

Still, the deck is far from perfect, so criticism is always welcome!




Just looking at the deck, my sense is (in true RDW fashion): hit with as many creatures as you can as quick as you can, burn thier creatures out of the way, and simply overwhelm with early creature damage, and perhaps finish them off with a touch of burn... Sound right?

And, with that in mind, is there a creature order that you hope to be able to play out in the deck - what's a great starting draw? 

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