Community

 
Jump Menu:
Post Reply
Page 22 of 24  •  Prev 1 ... 19 20 21 22 23 24 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Could someone explain why green hates flyers?
3 months ago  ::  Feb 16, 2013 - 1:30PM #211
HairlessThoctar
Date Joined: Dec 27, 2009
Posts: 7,121
There's considerably more design space to flying/anti-flying than there is to "can't be countered".

Also, the later is almost entirely pushed for constructed. 
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 months ago  ::  Feb 16, 2013 - 6:13PM #212
Astarael7
Date Joined: Oct 15, 2009
Posts: 706

Feb 16, 2013 -- 1:15PM, bay_falconer wrote:

Ask Blogatog. That's what Maro said.


No. This is what Maro said:

It’s not a color pie philosophy thing. Obviously nature has fliers. It’s a game balance thing. In order for evasion to work best, especially things like flying where things with it get to block other things with it, you want to have the ability scale in effectiveness allowing it to be stronger and weaker in certain match-ups.

In other words, Magic works best when each ability excels only in certain color(s). Everyone doing everything makes the color pie meaningless and cuts at the heart of how a trading card game works.


Source.

Also this:

Blue is the central flying color so Richard put flying hate in green and red, blue’s enemies.  With time, it stuck more in green than red probably because red already had good answers for fliers.


Source




Rules Advisor as of 03/01/2013
Zammm = Batman
"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 months ago  ::  Feb 16, 2013 - 6:41PM #213
HairlessThoctar
Date Joined: Dec 27, 2009
Posts: 7,121
Astarael, you're divine.
+10
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 months ago  ::  Feb 17, 2013 - 12:02AM #214
zammm
Date Joined: Jul 3, 2003
Posts: 27,263
Crossposting this from the other thread so as not to further derail that discussion:

Feb 16, 2013 -- 10:46PM, EyeHunter wrote:

Feb 16, 2013 -- 2:51PM, HairlessThoctar wrote:

Actually, green's had flying as recently as Skinshifter and Hornet Queen .



Both in sets furthest from MaRo's grasp as the color pie guru.


Actually...

Level 2 Magic Judge
whitemana.gif ~ bluemana.gif ~ blackmana.gif ~ redmana.gif ~ greenmana.gif
Knowledge knows no bounds.
Magic Area FAQ & Index | Magic General FAQ | Card Comparisons | The Wording Clinic
Rules Q&A FAQ | Cards & Combos FAQ | Keyword FAQ | Returning Player Rules Primer
| My Trade Binder

Join the Wizards Community Marketplace group today!

And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
--Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 months ago  ::  Feb 17, 2013 - 12:06AM #215
Astarael7
Date Joined: Oct 15, 2009
Posts: 706
I knew there was a reason Hornet Queen didn't bother me!

(From here.) 
Rules Advisor as of 03/01/2013
Zammm = Batman
"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 months ago  ::  Feb 18, 2013 - 2:52PM #216
bay_falconer
Date Joined: Oct 12, 2010
Posts: 9,710

Feb 16, 2013 -- 1:30PM, HairlessThoctar wrote:

There's considerably more design space to flying/anti-flying than there is to "can't be countered".

Also, the later is almost entirely pushed for constructed. 




Except there's not. There's no more design space for flying hate than hate for any other keyword. Take this:

Infiltrate Barrier 

Instant

Target player sacrifices a creature with hexproof.

See? This actually accomplishes something. It gets around a green mechanic that black actually has trouble getting around. It also hurts blue, of course, but the last creature with flying and pro-black was what? Akroma, Angel of Wrath ? Green hosing white when black and red can't does not a happy color pie make.

Feb 16, 2013 -- 6:13PM, Astarael7 wrote:

Blue is the central flying color so Richard put flying hate in green and red, blue’s enemies.  With time, it stuck more in green than red probably because red already had good answers for fliers.


Source.




That's sorta exactly what I said he said. But...it's still not a very good hoser. It doesn't hit blue where it hurts at all; if it did, we'd all be siding in Plummets over the last two years, what with this guy and this guy all over the place in Scars and Innistrad respectively. We didn't, they don't, and we weren't even siding in Crushing Vines .

Jun 27, 2012 -- 12:04AM, GM_Champion wrote:

Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.


----
Autocard is your friend.

[c]Lightning Bolt[/c]
= Lightning Bolt
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 months ago  ::  Feb 18, 2013 - 3:21PM #217
HairlessThoctar
Date Joined: Dec 27, 2009
Posts: 7,121

Feb 18, 2013 -- 2:52PM, bay_falconer wrote:


Target player sacrifices a creature with hexproof.


Well then what the hell is the point to having hexproof in the first place?
Black already has outlets to hexproof; Sac effects, board wipes, discard, blocking with dudes.   
  


We didn't, they don't, and we weren't even siding in Crushing Vines .




Except for those times that Purple Five mentioned about people siding in Crushing Vines.
These times. 
"Magic Worlds"
Sounds pretty important.
Like people at the top of their game important.  

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 months ago  ::  Feb 18, 2013 - 7:07PM #218
Astarael7
Date Joined: Oct 15, 2009
Posts: 706

Feb 18, 2013 -- 2:52PM, bay_falconer wrote:

Except there's not. There's no more design space for flying hate than hate for any other keyword.


Except Flying is the only keyword which appears in both sufficient quantity and sufficient quality to merit dedicated hate. The Limited game won by the solitary unanswered creature with Flying is arguably the most persistent trope of the Magic experience; so much so, that in nearly any draft environment it is entirely plausible (and, in some cases, an excellent strategy) to just throw together a bunch of blue and white guys with flying, backed up with a judicious sprinkling of permission and answers so that at least one flying dude hits them every turn.

This. Deck. Wins. Tournaments. Try that with Hexproof. (And before you cry Invisible Stalker , he won tournaments because he was unblockable; the Hexproof just meant that it was slightly easier to make him stick.)

Because this flying archetype is a thing nearly always, Development is always careful to seed answers to it into all of the colors, so it can't completely dominate the draft environment. Let's run through the colors.

  • White gets removal and its own dudes with flying.
  • Blue gets better dudes with flying, and often Paralyzing Grasp -type effects. (Also, bounce and counterspells, but those usually aren't great at dealing with something they've already made stick.)
  • Black gets really good removal. Also, a small smattering of Dead Weight -type effects (which are also removal).
  • Red gets direct damage. (Direct damage is so good at doing this that Red doesn't need anything else.)
  • Green gets Reach and......................dedicated flying hate. (Nothing like a hammer for solving all your nail-related problems.)

So we see nearly every color gets at least two kinds answers to creatures with flying, and the only color that doesn't, doesn't need it. What is your argument for why, mechanically, Limited would be improved if a color that needed it lost access to a perfectly good answer to a potentially problematic archetype?

tl;dr Plummet balances Limited.
Rules Advisor as of 03/01/2013
Zammm = Batman
"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 months ago  ::  Feb 19, 2013 - 7:50AM #219
Wynzerman
Date Joined: Oct 23, 2010
Posts: 3,498

Feb 17, 2013 -- 12:06AM, Astarael7 wrote:

I knew there was a reason Hornet Queen didn't bother me!

(From here.) 




That's because Flying is just part of what the Hornet Queen is- It's a creature that represents a behavior of bugs and has Flying because it makes sense. However, like Jugan, the Rising Star it's capacity as a Flying creature isn't terribly efficient and requires some level of jumping through hoops. And like Birds of Paradise , the flying isn't the point, it's a smaller feature.

Another interesting way to look at it is that is the "king of landwalk", and occasionally evasion just needs to become classic evasion and bypass land entirely (though, standard could use a pretty sweet Nonbasic Landwalk creature)



Signature by
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 months ago  ::  Feb 19, 2013 - 8:45AM #220
bay_falconer
Date Joined: Oct 12, 2010
Posts: 9,710
Oh, I give up. Plummet's an awesome bomb that has won me over nine thousand games just yesterday alone. Why, I would say that it's so overpowered, it should be banned. It's definitely, totally as good as Stoneforge Mystic , after all.

Sarcasm aside, you'll notice one card in a sideboard. Hell, I've put random cards in my sideboard when I really couldn't find a weakness to my deck.

If not having flying imbalances limited, then they should just give green limited (pardon the pun) amounts of flying, and limit (again, pardon the pun) green's removal to fight, which at least is consistent with green's flavor. It would perform the same hypothetical function anyway, outside of Cho-Manno and protection from creatures. And there's far more design space there.

Unless the whole point is to make green the color of coinflips because thanks, I don't like them, but if we have to have them, put them in the color of randomness and impulsiveness.

Jun 27, 2012 -- 12:04AM, GM_Champion wrote:

Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.


----
Autocard is your friend.

[c]Lightning Bolt[/c]
= Lightning Bolt
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 22 of 24  •  Prev 1 ... 19 20 21 22 23 24 Next
Jump Menu:
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing