Yes to both (although the rules call them "keyword actions").
Something can replace the card's move to the graveyard without replacing the discard event. e.g. Confessor 's ability will still trigger if you are instructed to discard Progenitus . And if there was a card that prevented discard, it wouldn't prevent cards from moving from a hand to a graveyard by other means.
Something can replace the card's move to the graveyard without replacing the sacrifice event. e.g. Mortician Beetle 's ability will still trigger if you are instructed to sacrifice Progenitus . And if there was a card that prevented sacrifice, it wouldn't prevent cards from moving from the battlefield to a graveyard by other means.
"counter" means "move from the stack to the graveyard" "move from the stack to the graveyard" does not mean "counter"
Basically this, what appears to me is that Ikegami seem to be blaming me for something I did not say which is (almost) fixed by what my fellow poster here said. Only nitpick is that he forgot "and none of its effects occur", as in, "it does not resolve". All of which, I think I specified. Note that even if the rules prevents a spell from resolving, none of its effects occur and it's put into its owner's graveyard, is specified as "countered". So this is kind of interchangeable from this point of view.
"Counter" IS a wrapper for "Move this spell to its owner's graveyard, none of its effects occur". "Destroy" IS a wrapper for "Move this permanent to its owner's graveyard".
Only difference is that the "keywords" (as Ikegami used) themselves have a meaning, so that we can have "indestructible", "regeneration" and "can't be countered".
I guess this post was already too much so I'll just leave it at that.
Rules question? Have you read the Basic rulebook already? No? Why not take some time to do that?
simple scenario to help alleviate this discussion. 1. player 1: pays Mountain plays a pillar of flame 2 dam to creature/player 2. player 2: says in response to the piller of flame, I will pay one colorless 2 blue and play cancel (counter target spell)
piller of flame simply cannot work and moves from the stack to the graveyard, pillar of flame does not do any damage. the counterspell works and moves into player 2's graveyard.
ok example 2: 1. player 1: plays 1 colorless, a green, and a white and plays a loxodon smiter. Loxodon smitter cannot be countered... player two cannot cast a cancel in this example. However, if....and I say if loxodon smiter said hexproof instead of cannot be countered....player 2 could cast a cancel and counter him at this time. if i am correct, loxodon smiter cannot be discarded and if the instance that this happens he moves instead of from your hand to your graveyard, he would move from your hand to the battlefield.
so ways of getting around him, he can be destroyed and/or exiled, dealt lethal combat damage, or dealt lethal direct damage via instants or sorcery's or abilities of other creatures/artifacts. He can also be placed on top of owners library and then thought scoured into the graveyard.
sure they can cast cancel, even if it was undermine or absorb, kinda pointless, save it for something that can be countered and gain life. If the player was in a pinch for some life sure, I can see that. Its all based on an example...and last time I checked moutains produced red mana, there are other things that produce red mana as well, but for the example a mountain produced a red mana. I figured most people would understand what I was talking about.
No-one is denying that mountains produce red mana, or even that they're the most common, "default" way of doing so. That does not make them the same thing. Calling a "mountain" is kind of like calling a glass of milk a cow.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
I figured most people would understand what I was talking about.
We here do. The question we have is "do you?" Questions that arise from equating "red mana" and "mountain" are quite common. We feel it's our job to fix your misconception before it causes you problems.