I loathe having to include the vanilla creatures in my deck, but they're just too handy.
lol Ace, I agree...I added 2 vanillas myself. Other than that I did finally get to use my Followed Footsteps and it literally won the game for me against GP using it on the Stillmoon Cavalier which normally would have totally raped me otherwise. I took out one of my Barrin's Spite in place of a 2nd Footsteps. I've found that getting Spite has screwed me on more than one occasion and so far have not regretted taking one of them out.
Perhaps I have had some bad luck with Moroii but it has screwed me on more than one occasion as well. Having just one is working out great for me.
Are you using your Moroi correctly? They are great lethal blockers and I use them for taking out threats to prevent damage from an attacker and Morois own upkeep cost.
Ya, I use them correctly, lol. That's not to say I never make mistakes, but they have not been as helpful as other cards in the deck for me. There's a bunch of decks that use enchants to make cards useless as well, and that never turns out well. I can't Flash it in as a blocker, so it isn't a surprise for anyone. It's a good card but I find it to be not as "great" as everyone else seems to think. Again, maybe I have just had bad luck...but I am doing really well only using one Moroii now.
Well, its just, the Moroii are your most efficient costed creature, and survive the cheaper burn spells en stuff like massacre Wurm or infest. The deck needs to be fast to win as it does not fare well against the late game and since the Moroii has build in evasion (flying) as well, they are most likely the best option to deal or block damage. They are also not likely to be cloned/stolen or copied because of the drawback and combo very nice with a few of your handier enchantments. I would not go below 2.
I'd rather have a couple more unblockables than flying. Flying is evasive, but it isn't like there are not a bunch of other flying creatures in other decks. They are efficient, but a 2-3 cmc creature will be out even faster and your 4 mana can be used to do something like throw on a Helm of the Ghastlord or put out one of the better options at 4 cmc such as a Sangromancer or even another 3 cmc unblockable. Once you hit 5 lands (the sweet spot for this deck in particular) you again can choose to put down a Moroii and basically do nothing else or start throwing down the real good stuff like the Painful Quandary , Dire Undercurrents , etc.
Saying that they are not likely to be cloned or stolen due to the 1 dmg per turn is counter-intuitive to the argument you are making in the first place, in that they are very worth the 1 dmg/turn. As I mentioned earlier they are also a shining beacon for any of the numerous enchants that stop blocking/attacking which has happened to me enough times to again question the using of too many Moroii .
That being said I can see using 2, as having one out is never a bad thing...but that also takes something else out of the deck. Two would be my limit for sure though and I am still winning a lot of games with using only one. 4 mana isn't bad, but still expensive when some of the best stuff is 4-5 mana as it is. There is a lot in this deck at 4-5 mana I would rather have than a Moroii on most occasions.
I finsihed a build for this deck that I am finally somewhat satisfied with:
A few notes:
1. I removed Followed Footsteps after experimenting with it for a day. In some situations, it's outstanding. In others, it's pretty bad. The reality is that I have too many 5cc cards as it is, and the trade for Painful Quandary and Dire Undercurrents was definitely not worth it. Those cards are always useful. Followed Footsteps is not. I tried Flush's solution of removing a Barrin's Spite , but I find Barrin's Spite way too useful to remove.
2. Awhile back, I wrote that I didn't like Memory Plunder in 1v1. I have since changed my mind about this. It isn't very good against a few decks - Peacekeepers and Pack Instinct, especially. But it is so good against others that its inclusion is necessary for the deck to perform well. This card today gave me perhaps the most ridiculous win I've ever had - I was against AW, they were swinging in with an Elderscale Wurm and a Roaring Primadox , I had 2 life, one 3/3 beast and I was planning on using Memory Plunder to Beast Within the Wurm and live one more turn. I cast it, and much to my surprise, found a Primal Surge in the graveyard - apparently I forced them to discard it but didn't realize it (I've never even seen this card in 1v1 before). The instant-speed Primal Surge brought in 4 blockers (including Grimgrin and the liege), 2 lands, and a Painful Quandary before it hit a non-permanent - allowing me to kill both attackers and win a couple turns later. This is admittedly a ridiculous, atypical anecdote that will probably never happen for me again but overall during the last few days the card has been very useful in a wide variety of situations.
3. I took out all Moroii . The card is great but its liabilities are big in a deck with poor removal and poor life gain. On turn 4 I would much rather be putting a Helm of the Ghastlord on a potential unblockable attacker, or equipping someone with a Mask of Riddles or making something unblockable with an Invisimancer or using Barrin's Spite to remove two blockers. Moroii is very good against decks without flyers but for the most part I have a lot of options to get attackers through without needing flyers anyway. The liability of having Moroii locked down with an enchantment is too much. This is something I may change my mind about after playing more since it is clearly good against some decks, but the build I posted works pretty well without it.
4. the creature ratio is only 50%. I usually try to avoid that ratio - it's usually too few creatures to reliably draw them when you need them - but the saving grace is that this deck does have a lot of draw options which makes up for it.
5. I included Wrexial, the Nemesis of Reason and Harvester of Souls - these are all cards that I had removed at various points, but I've decided that the build works much better with all 3 rather than 1 or 2 of them. Agaisnt burn decks, you really need the high toughness of all of them. Against removal-heavy decks, those decks will typically expend all of their removal on lesser (but highly annoying) threats. And the abilities of all 3 are great. In the last 2 days I won 2 games solely by milling someone with the Nemesis (including one against Goblins, of all things - but a goblins hand that didn't make a play until turn 4, so something went very, very wrong with it). Nemesis+Helm of the Ghastlord against Chandra won me the other game - the toughness was too high to kill, and the discard meant that burning my face wasn't quick enough.
All in all the deck plays better than I expected and I had a lot of fun with it the last 2 days. It's still probably the worst deck but I had more fun with it than many others.
Nice build, I like that you removed vanilla creatures, I did the same with my build. Can't stand them. Finally someone likes Memory Plunder , I couldn't live without it in the deck. Casting one on Primal Surge - priceless. Out of interest, have you ever used Royal Assassin ? I honestly, in hundred games I played with this deck, never have.
I took out Moroi the other day after it was pacified with Pillory of the Sleepless . I mean, come on!
I very rarely use Royal Assassin to actually kill anything but it deters attacks pretty well. They'll either wait a turn or two before attacking or they'll spend removal on the assassin instead of something else. It's not a great card without haste but buying an extra turn is still enough. It's a lot more useful in Exalted Darkness since you can put a Whispersilk Cloak on it. Against burn decks, it is almost completely useless.
This is why Barrin's Spite can be particularly useful used on your own creatures, sac a uselss vanilla and return your pacified/pilloried/etc creature back to hand. It also furthers why I run the vanillas.
I wouldn't bother with Extract or Infiltrate , you already include two invisimancers which basically have Infiltrate strapped to a 2/1 unblockable body. Extract can be handy in an opening hand to remove something you don't want to deal with, but mid - late game I'd say it was pretty useless.
I agree with Ace about the Royal Assassin . He's been priceless for me. I can think of 2 times where he flat out won the game for b/c the opponent couldn't attack or go so frustrated and kept swinging with everything while I picked off another attacker every turn. He even used Overrun and had me to 3 life and I still pulled out a win vs. AW.
I have used Barrin's Spite on my own creatures for the same reason before. Still doesn't make me think any better about Moroii . I also think without 2x Walking Corpse this deck is just a little too slow. So many times those worthless vanillas have been the reason I'm even around on turn 5+.
I don't quite get why so many people are saying "this deck is horrible late game" because it is getting to late game that is rough imo (that's why I use the 2 vanillas). Once I get mid-late game they are discarding like mad, I'm drawing like mad and I am whistling a song while I stroll to the finish line.
@Dagra I agree with Ace, Extract and Infiltrate are not worth it for the same reasons Ace has given.
I'm still experimenting with Followed Footsteps and so far still liking it. I still need to play a lot more games with them to make a final decision though. I have to admit I am starting to come around to the Nemesis of Reason . I forget what deck I was using....but I was playing vs. RG and the Nemesis won the game for my opponent. Only 5 cmc too, that's the real kicker for me. I just need to work it in somehow...
I also agree about the usefulness of Memory Plunder as I have used it plenty og times to help me out (usually to kill a creature with Unmake , Murder , etc.) during combat. Still, after listening to everyone make points to not using it I took it out and have not missed it entirely but it is a card I constantly think about putting back in. It is very useful without a doubt on more occasions than not.
Yeah that's true dh50, obviously it would depend on how much it would benefit/ deter you in the long run. Still, it is nice back up in dire circumstances.
I do like Moroii , although there have a been a few games where he's kept my hand warm. Not sure I'd drop both copies I run, although I might go down to one and put Wrexial, the Risen Deep back in the deck.
Ya, I'm pretty fond of Scroll Thief myself. I wouldn't cut him either. A good blocker if he is unable to get through too.
dh50 always has solid builds! I use damn near the same build - a couple heavy hitters and + a couple vanillas for early game pressure/defense. I have decided to go back to 1x Followed Footsteps after a little more testing. Still doing more testing to see if I should keep the last one or not. I added back the 2nd Barrin's Spite as it really is one of the only means of removal in this deck even if it isn't 100% consistent. I also got rid of my last Moroii in place of Nemesis of Reason but have yet to see it in my hand.
Just had to drop in and say I had one hell of a satisfying win with this deck today. Was playing against ED and my opponent had Worship, Sigil and No Mercy on the board which had me very scared. I amassed a few creatures (unblockables and one of my trusty vanillas), dropped grimgrin and slowly started grinding his life down to the point where I could swing for lethal, saccing my creatures to grim once the damage went through. (He wasn't blocking so I think he was waiting to draw into something, or maybe just confident in Worship/ No Mercy) once grimgrin was ready to swing in for lethal I rocked Barrins Spite on his two creatures and that was that. Was one of those games where I fist pumped afterwards.
Lol, that is awesome man! I JUST had a moment like that myself, saw a new post on this thread and now I'm laughing and pumped up! I was playing AS vs. MM and it was back and forth, was about a for sure win for MM but I was able to barely eek out the win with a buffed up Geist of Saint Traft after he wiped the board a dozen times.
Gotta love snatching a victory your opponent didn't see coming!
I am using dh50's exact build for this and I swear I have never got mana screwed more consistantly with any other deck!!
Does anyone else notice they get stuck at 3 mana for frickin' ever?!
Looking at dh50's decklist the only way you will get mana screwed is bad luck. I had two decks I swear had it out for me forever (GM and CM)...it seemed every damn time I played one of those decks I got mana screwed. Every frickin time. It's just bad luck man...Try and try again as they say. Anymore I have been having good luck with them again.
For me, mana screw is completely random. I can go 10 games without seeing it at all and then 10 games where it seems to happen every other game.
Having said that - the build I posted has a lot of 5 and 6 drops, which is why it has 4 Terramorphic Expanses. You could adjust it by adding two of the 2/2 zombies and taking out some higher cost cards, like Wrexial or and the Harvester of Souls. I haven't experienced greater mana issues with this deck than other decks and I can usually get to 5 mana pretty quickly, but mana screw is certainly a danger with so many high cc cards.
This is where I'm at currently:
That's damn near my build as well Hakeem. -2x Moroii , -1x Wrexial, the Risen Deep , +1x Helm of the Ghastlord , +1x Memory Plunder , and +1x Nemesis of Reason . The Helm is just too helpful in this deck to not have all 3 imo. Memory Plunder has saved me more times than I can count. I choose Nemesis over Wrexial just because he is cheaper (all though I have won a couple games because of his mill too).
How do you two get by without Barrin's Spite ? I know it can be situational but it's rare that I've never been able to use it unless I am already winning (and in that case I'm happy to leave it in my hand). I feel this deck needs all the removal it can get, especially one that gets around hexproof and shroud.
The card still targets the creatures, so hexproof and shroud are still safe from it. My main problem is that it requires my opponent to have two targettable creatures in play just to cast it. Most times it was just rotting in my hand.
This is it...the best I can do...
Finally getting wins with it.
For I while, I went heavy on critters and low on removal. But it doesn't work. You need ALL the removal to sneak through your critters with draw/discard effects, and to keep up with fast decks like CL, GG, and PK.
No vanilla creatures; just threats.
Sangromancer combos great with so many cards in this deck; wish we got 3 of her.
Opps, I completely missed that Kupo. I do use 2x Barrin's Spite and -2x Barony Vampire . Hakeem is right, You still can't do anything about Shroud/Hexproof...but I do find that it is valuable as a destroy. I tried playing without them but ended up putting them back in myself.
@Zizu The reason I use the 2 mana vanilla vampires is to be able to keep up with the faster decks. Replacing those with a 3 drop just doesn't cut it most the time.
I also use to use Flight of Fancy but decided that Helm of the Ghastlord was just as good if not better. Sure it isn't 2 draws off the bat but one swing and they discard, you draw, and something has +2+2 (depending on the creature's color of course).
Ok, I'm getting ridiculous now, lol. I forgot that I was running a 61 card deck and use 1 Followed Footsteps as well. ;P
The fact that the deck even needs to seriously consider running Grizzly Bears in order to be effective means the deck designer made a critical failure somewhere along the line. I mean if this were a Zombie tribal or something and could actually get bonuses off creature type, that would be one thing. This isn't that kind of deck, though. Better options should exist. I like the general concept of the deck - unblockables and combat damage triggers - but some of the cards they chose to pull it off make my head hurt.
If this deck had more small creatures with cost, I could see Helm of The Ghastlord being a really good card. But instead it got many small one color creatures, and many of them, vanilla.
Rifter, I can see where you're coming from with the vampires. Hard to believe that that card is 3 mana, the same cost as a Leatherback Baloth (what a great f'n card THAT is).
Believer, if I ever feel like I have the time to play Footsteps, I'll try it. As is, I feel like I'm always barely holding on with this deck.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... Of course this is the UB deck I would have designed, but even working without R2R block cards, and working off their theme of creature based discard/draw and unblockables, I could have done a lot better than this I'm pretty sure. Even without promos. I'll even try to stick close to the original deck and just replace the total rubbish cards.
2x Shadowmage Infiltrator
2x Dimir Guildmage
2x Ribbons of Night
2x Phantom Warrior
3x Agony Warp
2x Soul Manipulation
2x Helm of the Ghastlord
2x River's Grasp
2x Baleful Strix
2x Black Cat
2x Slith Strider
2x Flight of Fancy
Mask of Riddles
2x Dimir Infiltrator
Ghastlord of Fugue
2x Barrin's Spite
2x Inkfathom Infiltrator
2x Neurok Invisimancer
Glen Elendra Liege
Ashling, the Extinguisher
Fiend of the Shadows
Wrexial, the Risen Deep
Harvester of Souls
Of course Harvester would LOVE to be Nightveil Specter but this deck was designed too soon for that.
I haven't seen any builds that don't use helm of the ghastlord yet, so I'll contribute mine for people to consider. This was the first build I settled on, and the helms aren't included mostly because of the 2 for 1 factor -- I just can't ever get one to stick. Sure, it's gg if one does stick, but at the same time, it's a huge set-back when you get 2 for 1'd and lose your turn in the process, which I found was the more common of the two scenarios. I tested dh50's biuld recently, but I couldn't get it performing as well for me -- strangely I had similar issues to 2bestest with the mana. Hoewever, even removing the mana screw games from my test pool, my success still wasn't great -- and I never got a helm to stick around for more than one turn. So, I've reverted back to my no helm build.
If it's not obvious, this build heavily utilises the unblockables, but it also has a strong late game. The idea is that every card is a threat to the opponent -- if they don't remove the small unblockables, then the damage will add up over time (this is why it's essential to have the unblockables instead of vanillas); if they do use removal on the small unblockables, then there's less to use on your bombs. The discard and draw abilities greatly assist your goal along the way too, and you can generally expect to get at least a few of these trigerred each game. Mostly when things go to plan, the deck works by slowly but steadily strangling your opponent into submission -- actually, it's more of an exponential increase in tempo. Dire undercurrents and painful quandry are the icing on the cake. They are by far the MVPs of hte build -- and probably any build. While the creatures need a strong team effort to get the job done, a dire undercurrents or painful quandry on the table will in many cases assure victory.
I use the Vanillas to trade with opposing creatures where possible. Barony Vampire is terrible but I need boots on the ground to protect me. The removal package in this deck is very bad.
This is where I ended up with this deck. It's too inconsistent without the vanillas IMO. I dumped the unblockables and I do like Barrin's Spite. It can save you late game. Harvester of Souls is in because I like the card draw. The notable exclusion is Ghastlord. I found that even if I could cast him on turn 5 my opponent was close to an empty hand anyway. Either way, this deck is just too inconsistent for me. Here's hoping we get a proper u/b deck in 2014.
Y'know, Prog, I think you may have half of the right idea there - cut back on the unblockables, but not entirely. Run the Crafty Pathmage s, Neurok Invisimancer s, and the Ghastlord of Fugue because they don't have drawbacks like Inkfathom Infiltrator , and use the Flights and Masks to give evasion to the larger, less fancy critters like Grimgrin, Ashling, and Laquatus's Champion. Even Barony Vampire can be fairly scary with a Mask on. At the very least, there's not a lot of reason other than the double Blue cost to not run Invisimancers. The cast a free Infiltrate on top of being 2 power unblockable for 3.
The deck has a lot of great stuff at 5cmc+, but if you want to actually get to play any of it you have to not die first. The main problem I have with the builds by dh50 and prog is that they focus on all of the best cards (i.e. those at 5cmc+) without a reliable way to get there.
The fact that the deck needs vanilla blockers/dissuaders just to survive until it hits its bread and butter is annoying to me. I want to run the draw options and win through card-advantage, but I have to deal combat damage to do so and so the unblockables are in. But I have to be able to block, too, so the vanillas are there to fulfill that role.
Main takeaways: Harvester of Souls and Followed Footsteps just don't work here because you can't control/stall the matchup long enough to make them effective enough. They can win you the game sometimes, sure, but so can Primal Surge and Disaster Radius ! Even Wrexial, the Risen Deep is hard to include, but his unblockability against black decks (i.e. the meta) gets him a spot. Memory Plunder is too risky for me, as well. I dont want a 4cmc Searing Spear , I want reliability.
I tried Flight of Fancy , but eventually realized that I was including a bad card that let me draw more bad cards, so it had to go. At least the Helm applies pressure and can divert removal away from your best threats.
I love/hate this deck so much, because I want to abuse it but the tools just aren't there. You have to build the best deck from the pile you're given, and that doesn't mean picking the overall best 36 cards. My Mindstorms build took so many rounds of testing that it was ridiculous to make it consistent; this deck feels the same, except I just haven't gotten there yet.
I'm trying to hold out hope because Blue and Black are my favourite colours (independently - I can handle Green if it's mixed with Blue or Black), but I don't think you're going to come up with anything consistent, Hakeem. There's just too much trash and not enough treasure. From the top:
1 CMC - Extract doesn't do enough in most matchups and even when it does, unless it's a deck with tutors or piles of draw, there's a fair chance they wouldn't have drawn it anyhow. Infiltrate is pathetic. For the same mana, you can have a Rebound or Flashback version, or for two mana, one that makes two creatures unblockable.
2 CMC - Invisible Stalker is in here I guess only to illustrate how crappy he is outside of Aura Servants. The only aura in this deck that isn't rubbish wants dual coloured creatures. Guess what property Stalker lacks? Walking Corpse should never be seen in a Constructed deck unless it's for a tribal reason. As I said before, the fact that people are running it means this deck failed at a design level. Glimpse the Unthinkable has no business being in this deck. Even if you run Nemesis of Reason , you just need to hit one more time with it to get the same effect. Actually running Glimpse is almost never going to be the difference between winning and losing, and whenever it's not, it's going to be doing nothing of value.
3 CMC - Barony Vampire is the 3 CMC Walking Corpse . There's so much better available at three mana, even for commons, in every colour. Crafty Pathmage only works on a few creatures not already unblockable. If this deck ran snow lands and Chilling Shade , she might have a place. Scroll Thief is unforgivable. There's zero reason that shouldn't be Shadowmage Infiltrator . Phantom Warrior is a bad Neurok Invisimancer . You don't need the extra point of toughness on an unblockable attacker and if you're blocking with one, you're probably already screwed.
4 CMC - What a giant pile of manure. Glen Elendra Liege is a rubbish Liege to begin with. On top of that, she was tossed in with hardly enough multicolour critters for her to be worth using. Yet in most situations you'll end up running her because so many other options are even worse. Moroii belongs in a deck with bigger beaters, to be honest, but you'll often end up running him here just as something that can block a 3 power creature and not die. I will admit he works nicely with Invisimancer. Unliving Psychopath is expensive, slow, crappy removal intended for Limited. Necromantic Thirst is horrid. Woebearer is one more mana and provides its own decent body, and Sword of Light and Shadow would get the same ability along with giving you life to stem the flow of blood aggro decks cause you. Flight of Fancy is overcosted for the stuff you have a chance to put it on. Everything over 2 power except Ashling and Shoreline Salvager already has flying or better evasion. Valuable only because you can use it in 2HG to put on more deserving creatures.
5 CMC - Followed Footsteps is a card you have to build around - either Hexproof guys to put it on, or enough stalling power to make putting it on an opposing creature a big enough threat to get the opponent to off it themselves. This deck has no good use for it. Nemesis of Reason gives you an alternate win condition versus lifegain. If Ajani's deck were tearing up the metagame, I could see the point. As is, it's generally a bad attacker or overcosted blocker.
6+ CMC - Hellcarver Demon ...really? Why not just throw in Steamflogger Boss , too? MOAR TRASH! Mephidross Vampire is utterly useless outside of its combo interactions with a handful of cards. Overcosted trash. Mindleech Mass is 8 CMC. Amusing if you're up against two rubbish players in 2HG, but otherwise total pants.
I mean depending on what you're personally counting, we're looking at 14-25 utterly unplayable cards in a deck already bereft of promo unlocks. That's about a third of all the playable non-land cards. If this wasn't intentionally designed to be bad, whomever made it ought to be punished. It's balls.
EDIT: Fixed a pair of goofball typos.
I've removed content from this thread. Vulgar language and attempts to mask such language are violations of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct
Remember to keep your posts polite and on topic and refrain from using explicit language.
Hakeem I hear what your saying and you're right there's a more competitive way to play it. I like my decks to be both fun and competitive. And while walking corpse and barony aren't fun, they can get me to the harvester or wrexial which are fun for me. My goal with every deck is to max fun and win as much as I can but I prefer fun so I make builds that win often but aren't necessarily the most competetive way to play them. That said, they have to be competitive enough or they are no fun to play.
The main reason I play Inkfathom Infiltrator is for the awesomeness he is equipped with a Helm of the Ghastlord . That and he costs 2 mana of ANY color. So if things are not going great he can always be thrown out there and start dealing damage. It does kinda suck he can't block..but I think he more than makes up for that. The Crafty Pathmage never seems to work out for me as most the time something is already unblockable or it is over 2 power. That and it is only a 1/1 and can't do much of anything else except be a 3cmc chump block. When it works, it works great, but more often than not I found it wasn't quite cutting it.
@Hakeem I think you are seriously overlooking/under valuing Memory Plunder . It can be so much more than a "4 mana Searing Spear ". It can also make any Sorcery in a GY an Instant! It can be used as a destroy, a counter, damage spell. I've used it as an Overrun (freakin awesome). Even if it is spent on a 2 or 3 cmc destroy it can be everything you needed to get w/e it is stopping you in your tracks. I took it out for a while until half the time I'm thinking "If I even had a chance to get Memory Plunder this game would be mine". Works great for sweeping spells too and most people NEVER see it coming. Just some food for thought my friend!
I wish I had a Memory Plunder in my hand in almost every duel I play with this deck; it's a fantastic card (and rather unique in DOTP too!).
No joke Kupo, I'd love to have more than just 1 copy. Oh well.
Oh, don't get me wrong. Inkfathom Infiltrator has a drawback, but I still run and love it. Not in the least because I ran it alongside Bitterblossom in some tribal Rogue decks. Heck, I've played suicide Black with Phyrexian Negator . I was one of the first people to start developing decks with Necropotence , and I ran several decks with Juzam Djinn and Erhnam Djinn before they were popular. Erg Raiders , too. I am not one to let drawbacks keep me from running cards that reward the risk sufficiently. I even like Moroii , just usually in decks that have cards like Distortion Strike and/or Hatred .
I dumped Shoreline because it only draws me a card when I play an Island after casting it. I'm trying out Mephindross Vampire and the Psychopath. Mephindross would have been much better with a couple Vampire Outcasts and Nocturnus. 2 Barter in blood would have been nice intead of Barrin's Spite. I cannot drop the Followed Footsteps because, honestly, what do you do for removal past a 5 + toughness? Plus putting FF on Sangromancer or Laquatus Champion is game winning. I started winning with this deck once I included the vaniilas though. They just work better for me than the unblockables in 1v1.
I think prog discovered a bug with Shoreline Salvager . I think Wizards should hire him because he tries different card/builds for fun. What better way to discover bugs than to actually play with the cards!! +1!
The Dracogenius, however, is correct. The build will win you games because you hit a cool combo, but overall it's unreliable. The only reason you get there is because the other guy is a stoned douchebag.
Unlike me... I'm great... I'm a drunk douchebag!
stoned douchebags are awesome
drunk douchebags suck
drunk losers are awesome
stoned losers suck
I'll asume your a drunk loser, because they're the awesome ones.
Using Followed Footsteps on your own creature isn't the main reason I even have it. I like to use it on the opponent's creature that is giving me the most problems. Then they have to A) get rid of the creature or B) deal with that creature becoming your army after a couple turns. When I do play Footsteps on my own creature, it is usualy on a "lesser" creature (especially one of the unblockables) to draw removal away from something even better like a Sangromancer or a Ashling, the Extinguisher . I love playing it on a Neurok Invisimancer . If they don't kill it, I have an unblockable army about to go for the kill.
I only use 1x Followed Footsteps because it is a 5 cmc card but in a deck that needs help with removal this actually answers the call as best as we can hope for. Do I wish we had some Go for the Throat or even some Mana Leak (or more than one Soul Manipulation )? I do. But we don't, so this gives the edge that this deck is sometimes lacking imo. If it isn't dealt with immediately then this card can single handedly win you the game if you are still in it.
Lol, you certainly get the "cream of the crop" at fast food joints.
Haha....you have no idea :P
My favorite thing in the world now are stoners that think nobody can tell they're stoned. I used to partake and thought I could get away with it, but good god....it takes all of one glance and it's painfully obvious. Oh well. Also, 665 posts mind? Better make the next one a goodie.
And more on topic I had completely forgotten Soul Manipulation was in this deck. I have literally only seen it once, and I never even got the chance to use it
The best card in this deck that I never see is Royal Assassin ; another copy would really strengthen this deck.
I agree, he has done wonders for me in both this deck and ED (all though he does have more synergy with ED). I would include him in any deck that offered him. Especially in RG where removal is limited to begin with.
Every time he's dropped for me, he's been an absolute MVP. Worst case scenario, he draws some removal. Best case, he shuts them down until I can get my big guns out to play.
I actually managed to win seven games in a row using this deck, which is strange considering its like ... well, pretty much the worst deck in the game, alongside Act of War.
This is deck is not even close to one of the worst decks for me.
Tested again and confirmed. If you cast Shoreline Salvager, say, on turn 4 with an Island out, then attack on turn 5 without playing another Island, it does not draw you a card. However, if you do play an Island it will. It only recognizes that you "control" an Island after it's on the battlefield and one is played.
I've seen this issue on Steam as well, though I didn't know the cause; I just know I didn't get to draw a card. It hasn't been in my deck since.
Just think of it as a Cancel . If you get the 2nd part even better. Or sometimes I feel it is worth it to grab a creature from my GY without the counter (usually not, but it has saved me a couple times).
Upon review, I think the "drop all vanillas" strategy is the way to go. The "I need boots on the ground" argument just doesn't stand up in my playing. The better critters DO put boots on the ground, and do so at better value, adding better threats. Still not a dominant deck, but can definitely be competitive. And very fun.
I only use 2 vanillas, so perhaps that is a "compromise" between all vanillas and no vanillas. If I had a better 2 cmc option than Walking Corpse , or even a 3cmc option that wasn't 2 of a certain color, I would probably use it instead...but I don't have that option. Barony Vampire might be slightly better being a 3/2, but I'd rather have the cheaper cost for 1 less power in this scenario. I really do understand no one wanting to use vanillas though, lol, I would rather not as well.
I actually had an epic win using this deck last night after you left, drifter. All I had on board was Royal Assassin but I had 2x Agony Warp in hand and six untapped lands. Dude was using PK and went all Alpha-strike on me, so I blocked a dude with the Assassin, tapped it to kill Crusader of Odric and cast both Warps targetting 4 different creatures to kill two and nerf the power of another two. When I untap, I use the Assassin to kill another dude and drop Painful Quandary . He was playing off the top of his deck, so his Quandary was indeed Painful.
That is straight up awesome. Agony Warp is definitely the star in this deck.
yea in a vacuum a 2/2 unblockable is better then a 3/2 vampire but the cool thing about the vanillas is they are so ez to cast. If you have 5 land and only 2 islands then those 3 costs unblockables may as well cost 5!! If i could somehow gaurantee 2 islands on turn3 AND 2 swamps turn 4 then they would probably work great...but yea that never worked......... I took out all the sorcerys and only run 3 five costs. with all the draw and little dudes works great !! in 2hg anyways...I like to have lots of ez to cast cards in decks with draw. Its the same idea as jace's font helps jace alot against big decks but probably backfires against lildude decks. Only here the rogues are the font and the littledudes!! so much fun!!
Having the most success with this deck against blue control decks; CW, MS, & DP.
The Guildmage is awesome late game. Just had a good CW player bust out Future Sight, but he had a very, very difficult time taking full advantage because I kept sucking cards out of his hand; so he was basically top-decking with Sight. Unable to unleash his usual barrage of spells and hold instants to surprise me with, I was able to whittle him down with unblockables and the Champion at the end.
Removal is so vital to this deck. I suggest running every Agony Warp, Barrin's Spite, and Ribbon they give us. And Soul Manipulation. I used to go light on these and heavier on critters, and I was getting crushed. Then I put all of these in and the deck is actually competitive in the right matchups.
Even came darn close to beating a good BoF player tonight. Since BoF is my go-to deck when I want to win a game, I felt good about RG hanging so well with it.
I agree Zizu, I run all of the above. I've beaten some good BoF decks a couple times (you don't see it too often for some reason) with Painful Quandary and a few troops on the ground. I was beat by RG using my BoF vs. Hakeem when I couldn't do anything about a 55, then 7/7, then 9/9 Grimgrin, Corpse-Born . I was throwing everything I had at the face but it was 1 turn too late.
At first glance Grimgrin, Corpse-Born doesn't look that great but its actually a good card. I found out after DonBabuel smacked me around with it. >.>
Ya, Grimgrin has won me more than a couple games on his own, lol. He is a beast.
I built it as midrange because the best cards this pool has are the 5+ mana ones. Because we are building midrange we don't focus on aggro cards like the unblockables. The goal is to survive aggro decks and win out mid/late game with card advantage and bombs.
No Inkfathom Infiltrator because it has no defensive abilities and your goal is to play midrange not aggro.
No Glen Elendra Liege because im barely running any dual color creatures and half the ones I'm running are already big. Plus this card is more suited to an aggro deck with a lot of creatures not a midrange deck that focuses on bringing out singular bombs. It was a tough cut nevertheless and I think it may find it's way back in.
No Helm of the Ghastlord because it is a 2-1 waiting to happen. If I'm going to risk a 2-1 I'd rather do it for a potential game finisher like Followed footsteps
no Memory Plunder because I hate random/chaos/luck cards.
No Moroii because he sucks honestly. Even if he isn't pacified or blocked he isn't really a good mana value when you consider the lifeloss. Take away the lifeloss and he'd either be a 3/3 flier or costed at 5 which is pretty average. Everything else I have in the 4 slot is a lot better.
The only thing I could really see dropping is the Followed Footsteps as they are high risk, but they are also really high reward. I might eventually drop 1 for Glen Elendra Liege . But I don't know what I would drop the other for.
If you are dropping all of the unblockables I suppose it makes sense to drop Helm of the Ghastlord but even 1 good hit with the helm on is worth the cost. So even if it is a 2-1, that 1 hit makes it worth its cost imo (after that its just gravy).
Followed Footsteps seems worth it to me (I only run one, but I also run a more aggro build). It can be used on opponent's beefy creatures, which is always a good thing (it then works as a destroy they have to waste their destroy on or you start getting an army of their best creature on the table) or if you use it on your creature at the right time (like when you are fairly sure they dont have a destroy/they are literally topdecking) it is usually gold. I will also use it on a "lesser" creature of mine to draw out a destroy to save one of my bigger threats on the field from being destroyed. If I was wrong and they didn't have a destroy then even a lesser threat is going to get to be too much after a couple turns of being copied. It is a risky card...but I think it is more "low risk, high reward" as opposed to "high risk, high reward".
I don't see Memory Plunder as being random/chaos/luck as nearly every matchup (especially the popularly played decks) are all heavy with Instants/Sorceries. Rarely ever does this card become dead.
I agree with you about the Glen Elendra Liege if you really don't have a lot of multicolored out there, but then again she can still be helpful with the few multicolors and +1+1 to everything isn't bad, just not as good as +2+2. As far as Lieges go she is certainly one of the more underwhelming ones (much like the Boartusk Liege ...how do they have lieges like these when they have lieges like Deathbringer Liege and Murkfiend Liege , etc!?)... Tough call though!
I also agree about the Moroii , I never had as much success with it as I figured I would have when I saw the decklist. I started using all of them and eventually worked my way to using none of them, 1 by 1, lol.
That's just my thoughts based on experience. I am interested to see how well the deck works for you though. I hope you post some results in a couple weeks! Looks like a solid and reliable build to me.
thats what i dig about this game is how people aproach stuff in different ways. For example I looked at Moroii and took em out right at the start. Then gradually put em all back in 1 by 1!! haha
and thought grimgrin and wrex would be great but ended up taking both out after alot of games...
For me the gamewinners have been dire undercurrents and helm (draw +discard is sexy to me call me a pervert if you want!!)and when I realized that.is when i said screw it and put in alot of little dudes to trigger the undercurrent and wear the helms/flying enchants. I get that auras are bad is sort of a thing around here, but 1 swing on a black critter and you take one of there cards and there kill spell next turn so I guess its 2for2? If its on a blue/black critter then its 2for3? or something idk...
Okay. I think I'll post my thoughts on some of the cards then.
Followed Footsteps : I recently removed Dire Undercurrents to add in the second Followed Footsteps . It's a great card and can work especially well on an opponenet's creature. Another good target is Glen Elendra Liege , stacking pumps for all of your creatures.
Helm of the Ghastlord : I've included all three of these. One hit with one can give the same card advantage as Flight of Fancy , plus the buff. It does have the evasion that Flight of Fancy has, but it isn't needed for many of it's targets, which include: Dimir Guildmage , Inkfathom Infiltrator , Dimir Cutpurse , Glen Elendra Liege , Moroii and some of the bombs.
Memory Plunder : Not a fan. Been a big ol' nothing for too many matches for me.
Moroii : This card has been instrumental in helping me win a few times. But you have to be careful about when you play it. Especially against an opponent with Claustrophobia or Pacifism .
Nemesis of Reason : A 3/7 for 5 is alright, but it's effect is pretty useless (I don't include Memory Plunder ) as you are not trying to mill your opponent. And 5 mana for a wall isn't all that impressive either.
Ribbons of Night : I included it to begin with then took it out for a long time. But it's back in now because it is surprisingly useful when you think about it; removal, life gain and cantrip, all in one neat little package.
Inkfathom Infiltrator : Instead of Walking Corpse . It's just a better target for Helm of the Ghastlord . And it's good to chip away at your opponent's health. I like to play quite aggressively with this deck. You have to if you want to make the most of the discard.
Barony Vampire : Also chose this over Walking Corpse as it fills in my curve better. And 3 power is pretty useful.
For reference, here is my current deck:
The problem with this deck overall is that it has some great cards at 5+cmc, but no reliable way to get there. I like the build and the concept, but I just see a lot of losses due to getting aggroed or mulligans or missing land drops. I really don't like Followed Footsteps ... great when it works, but pretty unreliable, IMO.
Memory Plunder is explicitly need imo. How can you not run this card? Sap anything decent out of someone.... this is not a luck card.
Totally disagree on Footsteps in 2HG. I can't stand them anymore. I see way too much SS, CW, OD or MM or whatever to even care. Waste of space if you ask me.
Infiltrator plus ghastlord can be awesome.
Post Your Reply
Please login to post a reply.