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7 months ago ::
Oct 23, 2012 - 9:44AM
#21
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2008
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Ground stalls happen a lot, which makes this a much better Hellstead. Also Hellstead is rakdos only - you can play this as a finisher in Izzet to great effect.
Is that comment based on experience or hypotheticals? Because I've run Hellsteed (in Rakdos) and left this in the board in the same game and almost all of the time, the Hellsteed felt way more relevant than if it had been a non-haste flier.
I'd say with the experience of playing both with and against both that they are pretty much on par. Hellsteed's haste is very very nice and first strike make it a major pain to get rid of, but it does get chump-blocked quite a bit. (I was able to do so quite well with Azorius v. Rakdos while winning above the fray.) It's still pretty much a one-sided The Abyss  and in limited, that rocks.
The Imps two forms of Evasion make it also worth running. Trample and Flying are really huge and there are some nice tricks in both Izzet and Rakdos that can make it game ending the next attack. I once lost to an Imps being double Dynacharged over my Trestle Troll to trample for the win. That was almost embarrassing.
I'm never sad to run either of these in my deck.
Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do.
I've seen angels fall from blinding heights.
But you yourself are nothing so divine.
Just next in line.
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7 months ago ::
Oct 23, 2012 - 10:00AM
#22
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Date Joined:
Sep 30, 2010
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I'm not sad, per se, to run this (I gave it 3.5 after all), I just don't think it's as bomby as everyone else seems to think.
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7 months ago ::
Oct 23, 2012 - 10:17AM
#23
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Date Joined:
Sep 23, 2011
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Even in an aggro deck it's a safety net that wins the game on its own. Even if you're playing a very aggressive deck, in the games where you almost kill your opponent and another cheap creature would have done it your opponent will still be forced to play a fair amount of defense if they don't just want to die to a counterswing, so you'll probably get there. The games where you don't get there at all, the games where they drop two Centaur Healer  , this will help immensely. And there's not much they can throw in front of it. I think it's fair to call it a bomb.
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7 months ago ::
Oct 23, 2012 - 10:32AM
#24
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Date Joined:
Sep 30, 2010
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You are fully entitled to that opinion - maybe I am the one who's off on this one, but so far it has not impressed me enough to warrant more than a 3.5. To be fair, though, the Rakdos deck where I left it out was build from 12 packs (Team Sealed), so I had enough good cards at low costs to keep my curve low enough for sixes to feel a bit awkward.
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7 months ago ::
Oct 23, 2012 - 11:56AM
#25
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2009
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You are fully entitled to that opinion - maybe I am the one who's off on this one, but so far it has not impressed me enough to warrant more than a 3.5. To be fair, though, the Rakdos deck where I left it out was build from 12 packs (Team Sealed), so I had enough good cards at low costs to keep my curve low enough for sixes to feel a bit awkward.
This is not a matter of opinion, this is a matter of fact. Whether or not there exists an ultimate Rakdos deck that uses Rakdos Cackler  s, Thrill-Kill Assassin  s, Hellhole Flailer  s, Ultimate Price  s, Auger Spree  s and thus never gets up to 6 mana does not make the Imps any less of a bomb. The definition for bomb is "Can this card win the game more or less on it's own" a criteria that the Imps clearly meet. Further, in an 8 person pool you can't realistically make a 3 pack draft deck playing red that would be stronger without the Imps than with them.
Why do you insist on being down on this 6/5 flyer? You've rated Civic Saber ahead of them.
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7 months ago ::
Oct 23, 2012 - 1:10PM
#26
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Date Joined:
Sep 30, 2010
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You are fully entitled to that opinion - maybe I am the one who's off on this one, but so far it has not impressed me enough to warrant more than a 3.5. To be fair, though, the Rakdos deck where I left it out was build from 12 packs (Team Sealed), so I had enough good cards at low costs to keep my curve low enough for sixes to feel a bit awkward.
This is not a matter of opinion, this is a matter of fact. Whether or not there exists an ultimate Rakdos deck that uses Rakdos Cackler s, Thrill-Kill Assassin s, Hellhole Flailer s, Ultimate Price s, Auger Spree s and thus never gets up to 6 mana does not make the Imps any less of a bomb. The definition for bomb is "Can this card win the game more or less on it's own" a criteria that the Imps clearly meet. Further, in an 8 person pool you can't realistically make a 3 pack draft deck playing red that would be stronger without the Imps than with them.
Why do you insist on being down on this 6/5 flyer? You've rated Civic Saber ahead of them.
I would take Civic Saber over Chaos Imps P1P1 every time.
See my earlier comment about Moldgraf Monstrosity  . That card can win the game by its own. Does it do so very often? No, because it doesn't fit into the most drafted Green decks in Innistrad (mainly because of speed) and it's not an early pick for that reason. While 6 is more reasonable than 7 and the format a little bit slower (on average), I still think Chaos Imps just don't quite cut it for a 4+ ranking.
Is Iona  a bomb in Zen draft? Yes, by your definition. Is she playable? Probably not - at least not that often. You're right that by your definition, this is a bomb. That does not make it automatically a 4+. Winning the game by itself is also possible with stuff like Vedalken Entrancer  and Bladetusk Boar  .
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7 months ago ::
Oct 23, 2012 - 1:20PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Feb 17, 2011
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Ground stalls happen a lot, which makes this a much better Hellstead. Also Hellstead is rakdos only - you can play this as a finisher in Izzet to great effect.
Is that comment based on experience or hypotheticals? Because I've run Hellsteed (in Rakdos) and left this in the board in the same game and almost all of the time, the Hellsteed felt way more relevant than if it had been a non-haste flier.
Personal experience. I've played in 4 swiss prerelease events with Rakdos, once I had two chaos imps and once only one. Between the two, it wasn't even a contest where Chaos Imp was hands down the greater agressor.
Hellstead, thanks to his First Strike, was actually more relevant as a blocker when I was on the backfoot. The corner cases where it being a better defender than Imps was slim, though.
All in all, in a foil rare case, P1P1 is obviously Chaos Imps due color commitments; and even firmly in Rakdos, I'd almost always take Imps over Hellstead. Haste is good; but ground is a big weakness, and I've so far only lost 1 game with a resolved Imp in about tens of games with it; the statistics for Hellstead is far worse.
I would take Civic Saber over Chaos Imps P1P1 every time.
Aaaand there goes all your credibility.
The mage formerly known as kedi.
Team GFG - Goons From Ghana - Playing sweet decks since 2010
1:31 AM Nighthavk_: I'm actually playing B/r zombies
1:31 AM Battle7: nice
1:31 AM Nighthavk_: yeah it's pretty sweet really
1:31 AM Battle7: playing esper tokens
1:32 AM Nighthavk_: I like that deck
1:32 AM Battle7: it's sweet
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7 months ago ::
Oct 23, 2012 - 3:10PM
#28
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Date Joined:
Sep 30, 2010
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Aaaand there goes all your credibility.
Really? How slow are the decks you guys are drafting? Because I love seeing the Saber in my opener and I can't imagine feeling that way for almost any six-drop. Saber is a really, really good card in this format.
The reason these threads exist is so that we can discuss and learn from each other. If you blankly dismiss my reasoning and rating on this and on the saber, I don't see what you're getting out of this. I am considering the possibility that I might be wrong on Imps, at least, but I haven't had a chance to try it out yet (and haven't actually faced the Saber vs Imps pick yet either).
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7 months ago ::
Oct 23, 2012 - 3:17PM
#29
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Date Joined:
Jan 23, 2007
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. I would take Civic Saber over Chaos Imps P1P1 every time.
Aaaand there goes all your credibility.
It's valid. Saber will make any deck, and lets you put off choosing your colors. I wouldn't make that choice unless the pack also had annihilating fire and guttersnipe, meaning my left is almost certainly going to think about red. However, it's not unreasonable.
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7 months ago ::
Oct 23, 2012 - 3:49PM
#30
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Date Joined:
Aug 10, 2012
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Aaaand there goes all your credibility.
Really? How slow are the decks you guys are drafting? Because I love seeing the Saber in my opener and I can't imagine feeling that way for almost any six-drop. Saber is a really, really good card in this format.
The reason these threads exist is so that we can discuss and learn from each other. If you blankly dismiss my reasoning and rating on this and on the saber, I don't see what you're getting out of this. I am considering the possibility that I might be wrong on Imps, at least, but I haven't had a chance to try it out yet (and haven't actually faced the Saber vs Imps pick yet either).
I'm not sure about not drafting imps, but this format is pretty fast, which is why I'm always leary of picking 6+ drops early on. I have to say, my best draft decks had mostly 3-drops.
On another note, the limited forums seem much more polite than the standard forums. I know nighthavk was kidding, but as Lobster pointed these forums are about discussion and that happens a lot more here and I really like it that way. I may not always agree with Lobster, or Sleeping, or bobus, but at least I'm always getting a new POV or affirming what I already thought. So. Yeah. My gf just made bacon bbl.
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