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8 months ago ::
Oct 12, 2012 - 10:14PM
#11
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Date Joined:
Jan 19, 2003
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So Amphibious Kavu  could trigger twice in a combat, possibly, even though the gatherer ruling says otherwise.
Amphibious Kavu's ruling is correct. Note that the ability says "one or more".
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8 months ago ::
Oct 12, 2012 - 10:39PM
#12
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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So Amphibious Kavu could trigger twice in a combat, possibly, even though the gatherer ruling says otherwise.
Once it becomes blocked, it cannot become blocked again that combat since it already has that state for the remainder of the combat.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 13, 2012 - 1:12AM
#13
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Date Joined:
Nov 11, 2009
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But the Kavu states that it triggers when it becomes 'blocked by a creature'. The rules say that it can trigger when blockers are declared and when blockers are put onto the battlefield blocking it, so long as that creature wasn't already blocking it.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 13, 2012 - 1:14AM
#14
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2010
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it does not
it states "blocked by one or more creature" which is different from "blocked by a creature"
proud member of the 2011 community team
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8 months ago ::
Oct 13, 2012 - 2:11AM
#15
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Date Joined:
Nov 11, 2009
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True, but this rule also states that it can trigger both when blockers are declared and when blockers are put onto the battlefield. There's nothing here about saying it can't trigger again. I guess it's a little ambiguous though using the following as examples: Example 1I attack with Amphibious Kavu . My opponent blocks with Invisible Stalker  , and Kavu's ability triggers because he just became blocked by one or more creatures and goes on the stack. Kavu's ability resolves. My opponent casts Flash Foliage  and it resolves, putting a 1/1 Saproling with Painter's Servant  making it blue) into play blocking the Kavu. Did it just become blocked by 1 or more creatures again? Or is it still blocked by 1 or more creatures? It definitely just became blocked by a creature. And it definitely is 1 or more creature. I could see it being interpreted either way. However, here is another example: Example 2I attack with Amphibious Kavu . My opponent blocks with Aetherplasm  , and both creatures' abilities trigger. Aetherplasm's ability starts to resolves and my opponent returns Aetherplasm to his hand but chooses not to put another creature into play. At this point, the Kavu is still blocked but is no longer blocked by one or more creatures. Kavu's ability resolves. My opponent casts Flash Foliage and it resolves, putting a 1/1 Saproling (with Painter's Servant making it blue) into play blocking the Kavu. Kavu just became blocked by 1 or more creatures again and it's ability should trigger again. So, I'm pretty certain it can trigger twice in Example 2. I'm not certain about Example 1, but I still think it triggers twice. I can't find a rule stating it wouldn't.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 13, 2012 - 4:39AM
#16
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Date Joined:
Mar 12, 2011
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Your first example is governed by this rule:
603.2d Some trigger events use the word "becomes" (for example, "becomes attached" or "becomes blocked"). These trigger only at the time the named event happens—they don’t trigger if that state already exists or retrigger if it persists. An ability that triggers when a permanent "becomes tapped" or "becomes untapped" doesn’t trigger if the permanent enters the battlefield in that state.
So in the first example you won't get another trigger.
I agree, that in the second example the Kavu should trigger again.
I'm a Rules Advisor now  "Simple questions" usually need rather complex answers, while complex questions often come down to no more than a simple "yes" or "no". Some of my favorite Flavor texts:
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8 months ago ::
Oct 13, 2012 - 4:57AM
#17
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Date Joined:
Nov 11, 2009
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Your first example is governed by this rule:
603.2d Some trigger events use the word "becomes" (for example, "becomes attached" or "becomes blocked"). These trigger only at the time the named event happens—they don’t trigger if that state already exists or retrigger if it persists. An ability that triggers when a permanent "becomes tapped" or "becomes untapped" doesn’t trigger if the permanent enters the battlefield in that state.
So in the first example you won't get another trigger.
I agree, that in the second example the Kavu should trigger again.
I think there's still an argument in example 1 that the Kavu just became blocked by another set of 1 or more creatures.
Take Angelic Protector  for example. If I target it with a Shock  , its ability triggers. With those still on the stack, I cast another Shock . The state of being the target of a spell or ability already exists. Does its ability not trigger a second time, causing it to die?
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8 months ago ::
Oct 13, 2012 - 5:27AM
#18
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Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2004
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Take Angelic Protector for example. If I target it with a Shock , its ability triggers. With those still on the stack, I cast another Shock . The state of being the target of a spell or ability already exists. Does its ability not trigger a second time, causing it to die?
A "becomes the target of a spell or ability" trigger works more like a "becomes blocked by a creature" trigger than a "becomes blocked" trigger. Also, note that the state of being the target of the second spell did not already exist.
509.4c An ability that reads "Whenever [this creature] becomes blocked, . . ." generally triggers only once each combat for that creature, even if it's blocked by multiple creatures. It will trigger if that creature becomes blocked by at least one creature declared as a blocker. It will also trigger if that creature becomes blocked by an effect or by a creature that's put onto the battlefield as a blocker, but only if the attacking creature was an unblocked creature at that time. (See rule 509.1h.)
509.4d An ability that reads "Whenever [this creature] becomes blocked by a creature, . . ." triggers once for each creature that blocks the named creature. It triggers if a creature is declared as a blocker for the attacking creature. It will also trigger if an effect causes a creature to block the attacking creature, but only if it wasn't already blocking that attacking creature at that time. In addition, it will trigger if a creature is put onto the battlefield blocking that creature. It won't trigger if the creature becomes blocked by an effect rather than a creature.
700.1. Anything that happens in a game is an event. Multiple events may take place during the resolution of a spell or ability. The text of triggered abilities and replacement effects defines the event they're looking for. One "happening" may be treated as a single event by one ability and as multiple events by another.
Example: If an attacking creature is blocked by two creatures, this is one event for a triggered ability that reads "Whenever [this creature] becomes blocked" but two events for a triggered ability that reads "Whenever [this creature] becomes blocked by a creature."
The second blue and/or black blocker for Kavu Amphibian does not count as a second event for its trigger, regardless of whether the blocking is simultaneous or sequential.
No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 13, 2012 - 6:15AM
#19
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Date Joined:
Nov 11, 2009
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Kavu's ability isn't a 'becomes blocked' ability as described in 509.4c, nor is it a 'becomes blocked by a creature' ability as described in 509.4d. It is a 'becomes blocked by a particular number of creatures' ability as described in 509.4e.
509.4e states that it can trigger when blockers are are declared and when blockers are added or removed from combat. There's nothing that says that they wouldn't be two separate events.
The only rule that might apply is 603.2d. Since he is already in the state of being blocked by 1 or more creatures, this might stop it from triggering again.
However, if 603.2d does apply here, why wouldn't it apply to the Angelic Protector example I gave?
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8 months ago ::
Oct 13, 2012 - 6:30AM
#20
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Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2004
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However, if 603.2d does apply here, why wouldn't it apply to the Angelic Protector example I gave?
Why would it? It changed from "not the target of the second Shock spell" to "the target of the second Shock spell", the same as any other time that ability would trigger. The second Shock spell is "a spell or ability", after all.
The Amphibious Kavu's old and new blockers together qualify as "one or more blue and/or black creatures", just like the old blocker(s) alone (or the usual case of several blockers declared simultaneously). The two Shock spells together do not qualify as "a spell or ability".
No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.
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