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Switch to Forum Live View Rakdos // Selesnya efficiency threshold (collaborative)
8 months ago  ::  Oct 08, 2012 - 6:51AM #1
MyPouf
Date Joined: Sep 20, 2012
Posts: 150
Following an earlier post, I would like to keep track of our draft experiences with Rakdos and Selesnya.

I suspect that:
-a Rakdos deck with a low (to medium) number of Unleash creatures will have a hard time to be really efficient.
-a Selesnya deck with a low number of Token maker and Populate cards will also face some problems in a draft situation.

What I suggest is that everytime you get a chance to play a (mainly) Rakdos or Selesnya deck, you post here:
- The number of creatures with unleash/total number of creatures/number of removals for Rakdos.
- The number of Token maker/Populate card for Selesnya.
- your result in the given draft.

It would be interesting to see if we can come up with a trend for these 2 guilds decks, or not...
         

    
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8 months ago  ::  Oct 08, 2012 - 9:34AM #2
rstnme
Date Joined: Aug 10, 2012
Posts: 2,531
The deck:

Creatures (15)

Armory Guard
Centaur Healer
Centaur's Herald
Fencing Ace x2
Gatecreeper Vine
Drudge Beetle
Keening Apparition
Loxodon Smiter
Rubbleback Rhino x2
Selesnya Sentry
Seller of Songbirds
Sunspire Griffin
Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage

Spells (7)

Avenging Arrow
Common Bond
Coursers' Accord
Giant Growth
Rootborn Defenses
Savage Surge
Swift Justice

Artifact (1)

Selesnya Keyrune

Lands (17)

Forest x7
Grove of the Guardian
Plains x7
Selesnya Guildgate x2 

So that's...  6 token cards. I went 4-0. Sorry for reposting this from my other thread, but I like the idea behind this.
Limited Guidelines:

5.0: I will take this card no matter what: Pack Rat
4.5: Bomb and/or splashable creature or removal: Aetherling
4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors: Advent of the Wurm
3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Gaze of Granite
3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature: Ascended Lawmage
2.5: Solid pick in-color: Bronzebeak Moa
2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Haazda Snare Squad
1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Wake the Reflections )
1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land: Murmuring Phantasm
0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in: Uncovered Clues
0.0: I will shred this card for counters: Possibility Storm
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8 months ago  ::  Oct 08, 2012 - 10:11AM #3
Lobster667
Date Joined: Sep 30, 2010
Posts: 5,341
I only count 5 Token-producers in that deck. And 3 Populate effects (though one of them is repeatable).

My Rakdos deck I referred to in the other post:

Creatures (14, 9 Unleash):
Grim Rustabout x 2 (Unleash)
Gore-House Chainwalker x 2 (Unleash)
Rix Maadi Guildmage
Dead Reveler (Unleash)
Sewer Shambler x 2
Splatter Thug x 2 (Unleash)
Hellhole Flailer (Unleash)
Cobblebrute
Rakdos Ragemutt
Spawn of Rix Maadi (Unleash)

Other Spells (9, 5 removal):
Civic Saber
Ultimate Price x 2 (Removal)
Rakdos Keyrune
Stab Wound (Removal)
Auger Spree (Removal)
Traitorous Instinct
Explosive Impact (Removal)
Rakdos' Return

Lands (17):
Mountain x 8
Rakdos Guildgate
Swamp x 8

And I also lied about the deck's record; I did lose a game. I went 2-0, 2-0, 2-1 for a record of 3-0 in matches, 6-1 in games, and took first in the draft
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8 months ago  ::  Oct 08, 2012 - 10:37AM #4
rstnme
Date Joined: Aug 10, 2012
Posts: 2,531

Oct 8, 2012 -- 10:11AM, Lobster667 wrote:

I only count 5 Token-producers in that deck. And 3 Populate effects (though one of them is repeatable).

My Rakdos deck I referred to in the other post:

Creatures (14, 9 Unleash):
Grim Rustabout x 2 (Unleash)
Gore-House Chainwalker x 2 (Unleash)
Rix Maadi Guildmage
Dead Reveler (Unleash)
Sewer Shambler x 2
Splatter Thug x 2 (Unleash)
Hellhole Flailer (Unleash)
Cobblebrute
Rakdos Ragemutt
Spawn of Rix Maadi (Unleash)

Other Spells (9, 5 removal):
Civic Saber
Ultimate Price x 2 (Removal)
Rakdos Keyrune
Stab Wound (Removal)
Auger Spree (Removal)
Traitorous Instinct
Explosive Impact (Removal)
Rakdos' Return

Lands (17):
Mountain x 8
Rakdos Guildgate
Swamp x 8

And I also lied about the deck's record; I did lose a game. I went 2-0, 2-0, 2-1 for a record of 3-0 in matches, 6-1 in games, and took first in the draft




Rootborn Defenses
Coursers' Accord
Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage
Seller of Songbirds
Centaur's Herald
Grove of the Guardian

Makes 6. The request was for creators/populate.

EDIT

An interesting thing to note about both decks: really heavy into 3cc creatures. I found I was always putting something down, and usually had mana leftover for combat tricks, or vice versa. Plus, the keyrunes are legit in limited.

Limited Guidelines:

5.0: I will take this card no matter what: Pack Rat
4.5: Bomb and/or splashable creature or removal: Aetherling
4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors: Advent of the Wurm
3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Gaze of Granite
3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature: Ascended Lawmage
2.5: Solid pick in-color: Bronzebeak Moa
2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Haazda Snare Squad
1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Wake the Reflections )
1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land: Murmuring Phantasm
0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in: Uncovered Clues
0.0: I will shred this card for counters: Possibility Storm
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8 months ago  ::  Oct 08, 2012 - 10:56AM #5
Lobster667
Date Joined: Sep 30, 2010
Posts: 5,341

Oct 8, 2012 -- 10:37AM, rstnme wrote:

Rootborn Defenses
Coursers' Accord
Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage
Seller of Songbirds
Centaur's Herald
Grove of the Guardian

Makes 6. The request was for creators/populate.

EDIT

An interesting thing to note about both decks: really heavy into 3cc creatures. I found I was always putting something down, and usually had mana leftover for combat tricks, or vice versa. Plus, the keyrunes are legit in limited.




Rootborn Defenses does not create a token by itself (it just populates).

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8 months ago  ::  Oct 08, 2012 - 11:03AM #6
rstnme
Date Joined: Aug 10, 2012
Posts: 2,531

Oct 8, 2012 -- 10:56AM, Lobster667 wrote:

Oct 8, 2012 -- 10:37AM, rstnme wrote:

Rootborn Defenses
Coursers' Accord
Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage
Seller of Songbirds
Centaur's Herald
Grove of the Guardian

Makes 6. The request was for creators/populate.

EDIT

An interesting thing to note about both decks: really heavy into 3cc creatures. I found I was always putting something down, and usually had mana leftover for combat tricks, or vice versa. Plus, the keyrunes are legit in limited.




Rootborn Defenses does not create a token by itself (it just populates).




It creates a token when there are tokens. I'd call that a token card, since it has an interaction with tokens. Not including it in the list sacrifices the point of this thread for semantics :P

Limited Guidelines:

5.0: I will take this card no matter what: Pack Rat
4.5: Bomb and/or splashable creature or removal: Aetherling
4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors: Advent of the Wurm
3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Gaze of Granite
3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature: Ascended Lawmage
2.5: Solid pick in-color: Bronzebeak Moa
2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Haazda Snare Squad
1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Wake the Reflections )
1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land: Murmuring Phantasm
0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in: Uncovered Clues
0.0: I will shred this card for counters: Possibility Storm
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8 months ago  ::  Oct 08, 2012 - 11:15AM #7
Lobster667
Date Joined: Sep 30, 2010
Posts: 5,341

Oct 8, 2012 -- 11:03AM, rstnme wrote:

Oct 8, 2012 -- 10:56AM, Lobster667 wrote:

Oct 8, 2012 -- 10:37AM, rstnme wrote:

Rootborn Defenses
Coursers' Accord
Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage
Seller of Songbirds
Centaur's Herald
Grove of the Guardian

Makes 6. The request was for creators/populate.

EDIT

An interesting thing to note about both decks: really heavy into 3cc creatures. I found I was always putting something down, and usually had mana leftover for combat tricks, or vice versa. Plus, the keyrunes are legit in limited.




Rootborn Defenses does not create a token by itself (it just populates).




It creates a token when there are tokens. I'd call that a token card, since it has an interaction with tokens. Not including it in the list sacrifices the point of this thread for semantics :P




The original poster specifically divided it into Token and Populate. I just went by that division.

A First look at Dragon's Maze Limited - New article up!
IN THE TANK - my very own blog for rambling about Magic!
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8 months ago  ::  Oct 08, 2012 - 11:35AM #8
rstnme
Date Joined: Aug 10, 2012
Posts: 2,531
The original poster wanted to know the total number of token makers/populate cards, bc his theory is based on a low combined number of them. So I said 6. 

I only played Rootborn once in the entire tournament with no tokens on the field, and that was to protect my blockers so I could follow up with an alpha strike. Just because the card has numerous functionalities it doesn't cease to be a token-generating card. The card generates tokens. Sure, a condition has to be met, but we're talking about Selesnya. This is a ridiculous back-and-forth over one card.
Limited Guidelines:

5.0: I will take this card no matter what: Pack Rat
4.5: Bomb and/or splashable creature or removal: Aetherling
4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors: Advent of the Wurm
3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Gaze of Granite
3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature: Ascended Lawmage
2.5: Solid pick in-color: Bronzebeak Moa
2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Haazda Snare Squad
1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Wake the Reflections )
1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land: Murmuring Phantasm
0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in: Uncovered Clues
0.0: I will shred this card for counters: Possibility Storm
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8 months ago  ::  Oct 08, 2012 - 12:56PM #9
LoveMonkey
Date Joined: Nov 6, 2011
Posts: 827
I think it would be more useful to split the two types of cards to get a better idea of what works.  As an extreme example, a deck with 10 populate cards an no token makers needs to be differentiated from a deck with 5 of each, otherwise results are pretty meaningless.

Cheers
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8 months ago  ::  Oct 08, 2012 - 1:09PM #10
rstnme
Date Joined: Aug 10, 2012
Posts: 2,531

Oct 8, 2012 -- 12:56PM, LoveMonkey wrote:

I think it would be more useful to split the two types of cards to get a better idea of what works.  As an extreme example, a deck with 10 populate cards an no token makers needs to be differentiated from a deck with 5 of each, otherwise results are pretty meaningless.

Cheers




So I had 5 token generators and 3 populate effects, one of which is repeatable, all in 6 cards. 

"What works" is a different discussion.

Centaur's Herald was a great combat trick, to block a heavy attacker and sac it for a Centaur.

Rootborn, as I mentioned, was a great combat trick and often left me with board advantage.

Seller of Songbirds mainly bought time, except when I needed more bird tokens and I had cards like Giant Growth in my hand. All about them combat tricks.

Grove of the Guardian was OK, though I found it costs you an attack round to crack, and then it's the first target for removal. I've played it both ways: a board threat so they keep mana in reserve and thus slows them down, or as a giant creature.

Guildmage was amazing, but died when I played her T2 more often than not. When she was out and populating, she was amazing. I only used her token-generation twice, both in stalled games. Still, she's a target for removal.

Coursers' Accord is a great 6-drop, especially with pumpables and shenanigans. I didn't play it that often because I only drew it twice.

Limited Guidelines:

5.0: I will take this card no matter what: Pack Rat
4.5: Bomb and/or splashable creature or removal: Aetherling
4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors: Advent of the Wurm
3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Gaze of Granite
3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature: Ascended Lawmage
2.5: Solid pick in-color: Bronzebeak Moa
2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Haazda Snare Squad
1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Wake the Reflections )
1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land: Murmuring Phantasm
0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in: Uncovered Clues
0.0: I will shred this card for counters: Possibility Storm
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