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Was the card Cavern of Souls made just to hurt the color blue in magic the gathering? Why stop people from countering a creature card when there are a thousand kill creature cards out there? The card Cavern of Souls made it to where you can no longer play an all blue deck. The person will just unleash something big and bad upon you that will end the game. A land card should never have this powerful of an effect. Cavern of Souls should of been a socery card that you play to stop the next creature card from being countered. There need to be a blue card that cost one blue mana and says destroy target land.

Oct 7, 2012 -- 8:21PM, ReggieJ wrote:

There need to be a blue card that cost one blue mana and says destroy target land.

that'll solve the issue.....that would be one of the most broken cards ever, Sinkhole would weep.


Run Ghost Quarter s if the cavern is giving you such a hard time. 

Sea's Claim or Spreading Seas will solve your problem.

But should U/X control decks be forced to play an extremely marginal land (Ghost Quarter) to potentially counter something that activates immediately and has virtually no downside (Cavern). I don't think so. Even if you get a perfect answer to Caverns with a Ghost Quarter, you no longer have a tempo advantage. Oh, wait. Control needs tempo.

Oct 7, 2012 -- 9:00PM, Weisse wrote:

But should U/X control decks be forced to play an extremely marginal land (Ghost Quarter) to potentially counter something that activates immediately and has virtually no downside (Cavern). I don't think so.

that's the nature of the game, always has been. You side against things that own your deck. In this case Ghost Quarter would be a viable addition to your standard decks sideboard. 

C'mon, even I'M not complaining about CoS being overpowered. In a Tribal deck, MAYBE, but the card isn't THAT bad.

It would be fine if it didn't fix your damn mana.

Oct 7, 2012 -- 9:26PM, Sleeping wrote:

It would be fine if it didn't fix your damn mana.

This^, but it's too late to change that.

This isn't the simple issue of sideboarding a card to deal with a certain card. Caverns has no (significant) downside, can be played in every deck that cares about its creatures. So, am I going to lose the first game to board in Quarter for the next, or maindeck Quarter and lose almost every game from tempo disadvantage? (Hint, I lose either way).

Given its price and rarity, I should imagine that many decks don't run it.  

Still, there are several Boomerang variants out there that will return it to hand during your opponent's upkeep.

Also, unless you are crippling yourself by playing Standard (or even Modern), you can Strip Mine or Wasteland it.

Political Trickery and its cousins may work, as well.

Tapping the land during their upkeep, say with Icy Manipulator also gets around it.

I know! Run Maze of Ith to keep the uncounterable creature from swinging?

Cheers!

If running a few colorless la nd s is ruining your tempo, maybe you should rethink your deck.  Maybe ad and kill everyone now .

I think you all just got trolled. No one is this slow

Oct 8, 2012 -- 1:46PM, MRHblue wrote:

I think you all just got trolled. No one is this slow

Have you ever worked with the public? I've seen people that make this guy look like a genius.

Stop playing mono blue and splash?

Splash black for removal and save your counters for noncreature spells?

Oct 8, 2012 -- 1:58PM, Escef wrote:

Oct 8, 2012 -- 1:46PM, MRHblue wrote:

I think you all just got trolled. No one is this slow

Have you ever worked with the public? I've seen people that make this guy look like a genius.

Thankfully not since 1998

Oct 8, 2012 -- 1:58PM, Escef wrote:

Oct 8, 2012 -- 1:46PM, MRHblue wrote:

I think you all just got trolled. No one is this slow

Have you ever worked with the public? I've seen people that make this guy look like a genius.

When I read this I laughed out loud, I work with tourists and oh my god!  I'm suprised some people made it to adulthood.

Oct 8, 2012 -- 1:58PM, Escef wrote:

Oct 8, 2012 -- 1:46PM, MRHblue wrote:

I think you all just got trolled. No one is this slow

Have you ever worked with the public? I've seen people that make this guy look like a genius.

When I read this I laughed out loud, I work with tourists and oh my god!  I'm suprised some people made it to adulthood.

I know that i could add black or white into my deck. The point is the effect this land has on the color blue and that you can no longer play an all blue deck. I think land cards should never have a huge game changing effect.

Also counters are important because they are one of the only ways to stop amazing ETB effects and creatures with protection other than killing your opponent before they can use them, and if such things didn't exist then removal would be overpowered. This is why there should be usable creature counters.

Oct 8, 2012 -- 6:48PM, ReggieJ wrote:

I know that i could add black or white into my deck. The point is the effect this land has on the color blue and that you can no longer play an all blue deck. I think land cards should never have a huge game changing effect.

If creature decks had no protections from counterspell they'd get wasted by mono blue decks, what about that?

We can't all play the same decks you know. It'd get boring. :P

It forces you to think about deckbuilding.

Zoidberg, that's not true. Without Cavern aggro still gives control a hard time. Mono blue control is actually already disadvantaged to aggro by the fact that it has trouble dealing with onboard threats, might not have enough answers for aggro's threats (no mass removal), and probably can't counter its first one or two plays. Mono green aggro is one of the harder matchups for my mono blue deck in Pauper. Decks that are geared towards removal, like certain mono black control decks, those are the ones that stomp on aggro decks.

Cavern of Souls takes your already sweet cards, makes them easier to cast, and then makes counterspells completely dead to them. Uncounterable creatures are fair because you have to choose a specific creature to put into your deck, free uncounterable for every creature in a tribal deck is a bit much.

Oct 8, 2012 -- 1:29AM, krichaiushii wrote:

Given its price and rarity, I should imagine that many decks don't run it.  

Still, there are several Boomerang variants out there that will return it to hand during your opponent's upkeep.

Also, unless you are crippling yourself by playing Standard (or even Modern), you can Strip Mine or Wasteland it.

Political Trickery and its cousins may work, as well.

Tapping the land during their upkeep, say with Icy Manipulator also gets around it.

I know! Run Maze of Ith to keep the uncounterable creature from swinging?

Cheers!

It's not that expensive really, and hell by the time a new player sinks the money into buying fatpacks, boosters, game supplies, etc... they could have a set of COS on top of a deck to run it in. This card has Legacy/modern written all over it though since standard hasn't been good on a variety of tribal in a long time, and if you think elves/goblins/slivers/etc... actually became good (minus gemhide sliver and a few others) since timeshift you're sadly mistaken. Also the price for COS isn't really that bad when you compare it to onslaught fetch, original duals, tarm, bob, FoW, etc... $25 is subpar and ebay prices i'm sure they're around $60 a set. Magic is all about sinking money, granted yeah I never thought my revised duals, onslaught fetch, and my other legacy staples would jump as high as they have I would not doubt someone would spend $200+ on a set of cards that were worth $60 at most back 6 - 7 years ago that was my mistake though and I got back what I paid for those cards. 

Oct 8, 2012 -- 7:06PM, Sleeping wrote:

Also counters are important because they are one of the only ways to stop amazing ETB effects and creatures with protection other than killing your opponent before they can use them, and if such things didn't exist then removal would be overpowered. This is why there should be usable creature counters.

How about this?

Clintonian Creature Counter

Exile target creature spell.

"Could you define the term 'counter'?"

Oct 8, 2012 -- 6:20PM, perodequeso wrote:

Oct 8, 2012 -- 1:58PM, Escef wrote:

Oct 8, 2012 -- 1:46PM, MRHblue wrote:

I think you all just got trolled. No one is this slow

Have you ever worked with the public? I've seen people that make this guy look like a genius.

When I read this I laughed out loud, I work with tourists and oh my god!  I'm suprised some people made it to adulthood.

You guys should try working in a hospital at night when all the freaks come out to play. 


Honestly - Cavern isn't such a big deal. 
It's only good for tribal, and there's not that many tribal decks we should really fear outside Merfolk and Goblins.  Merfolk are blue aren't they?
We've had Aether Vial for quite a while, that normal counter can't do anything about that either. 
So what?
Chances are mono-blue has already hit some stupid combo by turn 4 and won anyways.  

I don't see why you're complaining about blue getting hosed, blue has ways to remove any permanent from the board, and any blue deck can just use Stripmine , Ghost Quarter or Wasteland . 
Considering Black and Red can't touch enchantments, and green gets no creature removal, how are you even complaining about the strongest colour in Magic?

is the strongest color in "Magic" because it has the most broken cards. But people don't play "Magic", they play formats. I think it is mainly Standard players who complain about blue getting nerfed. I don't know the state of Standard though because I don't play it anymore.

In Modern, it has an effect too.

Anyway, there's also zombies and vampires right now. Whatever the case, at least some of your guys are going to be uncounterable.

I hate cavern with a passion.

yes Cavern of Souls is epic in a tribal deck no doubt but if your trying to run mono-blue against a tribal deck and dont expect challenges like this well your an idiot tribal works well together because everything works together with each other this is just another variant of that i.e. Root Sliver same thing o but it's a land so what if u have been paying attention lands are getting to become monster cards be a big kid and rebuild and rethink your tactics thats what blue is all about move on thank you :D

Oct 11, 2012 -- 2:32AM, Yamicannon wrote:

yes Cavern of Souls is epic in a tribal deck no doubt but if your trying to run mono-blue against a tribal deck and dont expect challenges like this well your an idiot tribal works well together because everything works together with each other this is just another variant of that i.e. Root Sliver same thing o but it's a land so what if u have been paying attention lands are getting to become monster cards be a big kid and rebuild and rethink your tactics thats what blue is all about move on thank you :D

Lands have actually gotten weaker if cards like Tolarian Academy have anything to say about it. The big problem with cavern is that is fixes your mana in addition to the uncounterable clause. Compare it to something like Boseiju, Who Shelters All .

Cavern is a very poorly designed card and very bad for Magic.

Oct 11, 2012 -- 2:42AM, sage62 wrote:

Lands have actually gotten weaker if cards like Tolarian Academy have anything to say about it. The big problem with cavern is that is fixes your mana in addition to the uncounterable clause. Compare it to something like Boseiju, Who Shelters All .

LOL, at least Boseiju may now drop in price! (eventually)
  

The funny thing is, I find it odd that they functionally reprinted Remove Soul with Cavern.

I also think it's weird because counters aren't as powerful as most new players think. (Compare the frequency of Vindicate in top Legacy decks to the frequency of Cancel in top decks in any format.) They're just really griefy.

Oct 11, 2012 -- 10:28AM, bay_falconer wrote:

The funny thing is, I find it odd that they functionally reprinted Remove Soul with Cavern.

I also think it's weird because counters aren't as powerful as most new players think. (Compare the frequency of Vindicate in top Legacy decks to the frequency of Cancel in top decks in any format.) They're just really griefy.

Essense Scatter was here first, also it's a decent limited counter.

Oct 11, 2012 -- 10:31AM, sage62 wrote:

Essense Scatter was here first, also it's a decent limited counter.

Remove Soul was totally first. That said, Essence Scatter isn't another M13 what-print like Searing Spear. Essence Scatter's been around since M10. Not too shocking to see it again.

Blue can tap Cavern each upkeep. Bounce the land to make them play it again. Bounce the summoned creature. Turn Cavern into an Island.

Psychic Overload to lock down the land.

Standard
Captain of the Mists and Tamiyo, the Moon Sage can tap down the land. Tamiyo prevents it from untapping. Unsummon and Silent Departure can bounce the summoned creature.

Right, because bouncing a Thragtusk is a great use of a card. Not to mention GoST.

Oct 11, 2012 -- 10:46AM, iamajellydonut wrote:

Oct 11, 2012 -- 10:31AM, sage62 wrote:

Essense Scatter was here first, also it's a decent limited counter.

Remove Soul was totally first. That said, Essence Scatter isn't another M13 what-print like Searing Spear. Essence Scatter's been around since M10. Not too shocking to see it again.

I meant before cavern >.> my bad.

Oct 11, 2012 -- 6:23PM, Weisse wrote:

Right, because bouncing a Thragtusk is a great use of a card. Not to mention GoST.

You relize that geist of saint traft has hexproof?
Which means unless u have overload bounce, u aren't touching his giest.

Unless ofc u have a creacture that can block it. It is only a 2/2. 

Cavern of Souls isn't bad for the game of Magic.  It DOES seem to be bad for people with narrowly built decks who can't figure out a way to use blue in any other way than just countering spells all day.  Thing is...Cavern of Souls has many answers to it (esp. in blue).  I'm sure if blue players put a little EFFORT into building a deck (or re-tuning the decks they have), they could imagine a way to get around one land card.

Just so it's known, I HATE counterspells. 
 

Oct 12, 2012 -- 1:43AM, highdesertvike wrote:

Cavern of Souls isn't bad for the game of Magic.  It DOES seem to be bad for people with narrowly built decks who can't figure out a way to use blue in any other way than just countering spells all day.  Thing is...Cavern of Souls has many answers to it (esp. in blue).  I'm sure if blue players put a little EFFORT into building a deck (or re-tuning the decks they have), they could imagine a way to get around one land card.

Just so it's known, I HATE counterspells.

Love or hate counterspells, they are blue's way of "removal". Without counters, blue either has to splash or just live with whatever is played. To axe all relevant counters hard is not fair. To add onto that, spot removal in general with the current Standard is severely lacking. So, even if blue does splash, they're still not in the clear. Not only does a lack of counters affect blue, it affects every deck that is having trouble with the lack of removal.

Oct 11, 2012 -- 10:28AM, bay_falconer wrote:

The funny thing is, I find it odd that they functionally reprinted Remove Soul with Cavern.

I also think it's weird because counters aren't as powerful as most new players think. (Compare the frequency of Vindicate in top Legacy decks to the frequency of Cancel in top decks in any format.) They're just really griefy.

I don't think it's fair to compare one of the best removals in the game with one of the most mediocre counterspells and draw the conclusion that counterspells are worse than removal.

You're in Legacy for Vindicate, so let's stay Legacy for counterspells.
 
Compare the total number of Vindicates PLUS Swords to Plowshares in all Top 8 Legacy decks in the past 6 months, with the total number of Force of Wills in those decks. (Hint: Force of Will wins. Many, many more decks Top 8'd with Force of Will, most of the decks running StP also have Force, and not every deck running StP or Vindicate run 4 of either, while decks that run Force, run 4 of it).

Force of Will also costs three less mana than Vindicate and one less than Swords to Plowshares .

My choice of Vindicate and Cancel wasn't arbitrary, though. Both cost 3 mana. Objectively, if they did the same thing, Cancel would be better. (It's an instant in one color versus a sorcery in two.)

Oct 12, 2012 -- 12:51PM, bay_falconer wrote:

Force of Will also costs three less mana than Vindicate and one less than Swords to Plowshares .

My choice of Vindicate and Cancel wasn't arbitrary, though. Both cost 3 mana. Objectively, if they did the same thing, Cancel would be better. (It's an instant in one color versus a sorcery in two.)

Comparing them by mana cost is arbitrary. Why does a counterspell for 3 mana have to be equivalent to a removal spell for 3? They're completely different. It's like saying, "Hey, let's compare 2-mana draw spells with 2-mana creatures".  Vindicate can't hit non-permanent spells, Cancel can't do anything about uncounterable permanents, Vindicate can't stop ETB effects, Cancel is useless when topdecked the next turn. They do totally different things.


The statement that counters are simply worse than removal is also fairly arbitrary, but if you want to use numbers to compare, you compare the best/most played counters with the best/most played removal spells in a given format. In Legacy, you have awesome couterspells and dangerous ETBs, so counters are generally superior to removal.

@SereneChaos

I think his point is precisely that retroactive answers are worth more than equivilant or even "less limited" reactive answers. Doom Blade is very playable in most Standards, Preemptive Strike is less so. Being able to not hold up mana and answer threats that have already hit the board is apparently stronger than being able to answer black creatures, shroud creatures, ETB abilities, and LTB abilities. The same is true with Vindicate and Cancel . Vindicate is generally considered the stronger of the two even though Cancel can answer shroud, ETB, LTB, and spells that don't become perminants. Beast Within is even considered to be a pretty potent card, and that leaves your opponent stuck with a 3/3. Though a catchall counter at two mana like Mana Leak is generally more potent than something like Vindicate.

I'm guessing the perfect fair catchall counter is between two and three mana. Narrow counters should be somewhere between one and two mana.

I play mill/draw-go decks. Cavern of Souls made my life impossible. It is bad design, like people have said, and unfair. The card would be fine (and loved by tribal players, and cost much less) if it didn't have the uncounterable line.

To the people saying use Ghost Quarter , be real please. If I'm making my mana base worse in order to Wasteland myself while fixing their mana to do something my deck is built to do, I should just stop trying. And there's no Spreading Seas in Standard. What's next, are you going to say "play Destroy the Evidence and stop crying"?

Yeah I understand they don't want draw-go to be a viable strategy, but guess what I'll keep playing it because it's what I enjoy. I'm sorry if I can't find "I MIRACLED BONFIRE BEFORE YOU DID OLOLOL" games to be fun.

Oct 12, 2012 -- 11:06PM, Fenix. wrote:

Yeah I understand they don't want draw-go to be a viable strategy, but guess what I'll keep playing it because it's what I enjoy. I'm sorry if I can't find "I MIRACLED BONFIRE BEFORE YOU DID OLOLOL" games to be fun.

I am a jelly donut, and I support this message.

Lately, in nearly all of my builds, I have begun using miracles. And so has everyone else. It's not because they're exceptional. It's not because it's the strat. It's not because my decks need them. It's because my decks naturally can. It's because their decks naturally can. And it's a coinflip. And it's bad.

Yeah, I thought miracle was pretty dumb from the beginning.

Oct 12, 2012 -- 5:06PM, Sleeping wrote:

I'm guessing the perfect fair catchall counter is between two and three mana. Narrow counters should be somewhere between one and two mana.

A lot of cards have what I call "half-mana problems", where the fair cost is 1/2 mana. Countering is worth 2 1/2 mana. But Magic only deals in integers.

The time issue is what does counterspells in, and why they're only "good" at two mana or less. (And Force of Will , Thwart , and friends count as "or less".) Or perhaps Rewind -style. Above that, you need some add-on, like Exclude or Suffocating Blast .

Oct 12, 2012 -- 11:50PM, Sleeping wrote:

Yeah, I thought miracle was pretty dumb from the beginning.

To me, it's an acceptable form of randomness, simply because Ponder and friends exist.

@Falconer
Divination has the same problem. It wants to cost 2.5-2.7 mana I think. 

Ok, I run mono-blue... if you can't counter use Unsummon and friends, or as an alternate Ice Cage

Reality Acid and some way to bounce it. Enchant the land and say good bye to it.

Oct 13, 2012 -- 7:57PM, Singe wrote:

Reality Acid and some way to bounce it. Enchant the land and say good bye to it.

I used to love drafting Reality Acid and Tolarian Sentinel . People didn't like that action. Especially when I started going after lands. Reminded me of back in Invasion block when I'd use Benalish Emissary with Sunscape Apprentice or Sunscape Master . People would scoop.

Oct 13, 2012 -- 8:13PM, Escef wrote:

Oct 13, 2012 -- 7:57PM, Singe wrote:

Reality Acid and some way to bounce it. Enchant the land and say good bye to it.

I used to love drafting Reality Acid and Tolarian Sentinel . People didn't like that action. Especially when I started going after lands. Reminded me of back in Invasion block when I'd use Benalish Emissary with Sunscape Apprentice or Sunscape Master . People would scoop.

Vedalken Mastermind is also another card that works with Acid.

Oct 13, 2012 -- 9:02PM, Singe wrote:

Oct 13, 2012 -- 8:13PM, Escef wrote:

Oct 13, 2012 -- 7:57PM, Singe wrote:

Reality Acid and some way to bounce it. Enchant the land and say good bye to it.

I used to love drafting Reality Acid and Tolarian Sentinel . People didn't like that action. Especially when I started going after lands. Reminded me of back in Invasion block when I'd use Benalish Emissary with Sunscape Apprentice or Sunscape Master . People would scoop.

Vedalken Mastermind is also another card that works with Acid.

It is, I run him and the Sentinel in my Numot EDH. They go great with Reality Acid, Fiend Hunter , Petravark , and Starke of Rath .

There's also Cavern Harpy with Nightscape Battlemage in IPA or triple Planeshift.

I think since most of you have covered Standard play - what about the eternal formats in Legacy and Vintage?

Cavern of Souls has helped tribal aggro become competitive again - formats that are conventionally dominated by control and combo.
Aggro decks like Goblins make good use of it, and wouldn't be able to beat many of the the top decks without it.
So in this light, since tribal decks aren't common in eternal formats - could Cavern actually be good?    

Isn't Goblins aggro-combo now though? That's just what I heard from somebody, I don't actually play Legacy.

Annex , Shifting Borders , and Vedalken Plotter can steal the land.

Spreading Seas is better to make the land an Island and it has a draw to make up for the loss.

Oct 14, 2012 -- 2:47PM, Sleeping wrote:

Isn't Goblins aggro-combo now though? That's just what I heard from somebody, I don't actually play Legacy.

I'm talkin about Vial Goblins - so that'd be about 20 to 22 lands with almost all the deck taken up with goblins and Aether Vial 's.
Is this the deck your friend was talking about? 

Oct 14, 2012 -- 2:47PM, Sleeping wrote:

Isn't Goblins aggro-combo now though? That's just what I heard from somebody, I don't actually play Legacy.

Depends. You can do 10 damage on turn 3 easily, if that's what you mean. Goblin Gaveleer combos ridiculously with Basilisk Collar .