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8 months ago ::
Oct 05, 2012 - 10:33AM
#11
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Date Joined:
Sep 23, 2011
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Did you really just say that playing Magic requires almost no skill and building a deck is essentially the only skill intensive aspect of Magic? I can't even count the number of games won or lost because of play mistakes by me or my opponent. Also wouldn't that mean everyone would be a professional Magic player? All you have to do is buy a deck, right?
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8 months ago ::
Oct 05, 2012 - 10:35AM
#12
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Date Joined:
Jul 27, 2011
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Proxies for sure have no place in a tourney except vintage 5/10/15 because P9/ABUR duals are very difficult to find.
As far as outside a tourney, I've only used them to get experience with a really expensive deck I want to build (Read : legacy Zoo). And RtR hyped me up so much I proxied cards while using the copies I got from the prerelease.
Decks I run Spoiler:
Show
I currently run a deck for Standard, Modern, Commander and Legacy.
For standard, I have a typical, horribly budget Rakdos Deck Wins.
For Modern, I have a very lovable mono-green, resistant to removal type of deck.
For Legacy, I'm trying too hard to break Pyromancer Ascension  .
For Commander/EDH, I'm running The Mimeoplasm  .
A little morals thing about me, I like winning through combos, but not infinitely.
However quiet, I am a Christian, so feel free to tell me you are too, it's always a relief.Cheers!
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8 months ago ::
Oct 05, 2012 - 10:41AM
#13
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Date Joined:
Feb 22, 2005
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@"Putting cards on the table is just gameplay": Would you say then that Chess is a game of idiots? Gameplay itself is critical, and that's just as true for Magic. Saying that the preparation is everything implies that a new player could beat a pro 50% of the time given equally powerful decks.
@"Decks tend towards the same thing": If Bonfire is the best card for the spot, then you should be running Bonfire. To use your Starcraft II example (But without specific units because I don't know a ton about Starcraft): Let's say Unit X is the best Unit for rushing. Let's say one player can't build Unit X and has to build Unit Y instead. Yes, they're using a different card for that spot, but it's not 'creative'. Magic has the 'you must own the cards' thing because it's a product that needs to be sold. Using the lowfat budget substitute doesn't make you a better deckbuilder, it just means you couldn't afford to build the deck you wanted to.
If you want to play a format where special deckbuilding choices are required, play limited. Playing with people with money vs people who can't afford cards can sometimes end up looking like Constructed VS Sealed and that's not really a fair fight.
@"Netdecking is cheating": No, it's really not. If you are building good decks, and running them well, you shouldn't have problems facing players who are running high quality decks but playing them poorly. If you are losing to players running good decks well and complaining then honestly you sound a lot like you're telling them to use a worse strategy because your strategy isn't powerful enough.
@Sleeping: That was kinda my point. I know, logically, that there's no reason for me to be annoyed with the person who proxied his deck and not the person who didn't, but that doesn't stop the gut reaction from still being that the guy who built his deck for free is cheating somehow. Gut reactions aren't always right.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 05, 2012 - 10:42AM
#14
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Date Joined:
Sep 23, 2011
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@Lord_of_fuddies
Well it might be hard for your average person to acquire the Standard or Legacy deck that they want to play to. Why does Vintage get an exception just because it's harder? If you're broke everything is expensive. Personally I love building casual decks entirely out of proxies. Then as I acquire each individual card I substitute it in. There's this feeling of accomplishment that comes with filling out a deck over time.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 05, 2012 - 10:48AM
#15
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Date Joined:
Sep 25, 2012
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I see no problem in the proxies especially in the tourney your college is starting, after all that money for the tournament will probably be split up between X people so that would give everyone a chance to buy more expensive cards yanno plus $5/person is better than $15 to draft. Anyways, I see no problem netdecking since magic is more about how much $$ is in your wallet anyways
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8 months ago ::
Oct 05, 2012 - 11:01AM
#16
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Date Joined:
Jan 16, 2011
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Proxies in my opinion are things that should be used sparingly, but I can understand the reasoning behind them. I was actually considering it while building a recent creature oriented dragon deck I have: I knew the schematic I was going for, which I had designed through, and I knew what cards I had of it. The thing was, at the time, for the finished product of a 100-card deck, I only had 60, enough to play, but was missing enough that even when I played with just what I had, the strategy seemed lacking. Now, admittedly I didn't proxy the dragons I was missing, but that was a personal choice for me, as I seldom try to play a deck in real life without at least have 90% of the cards I'm wanting to put in, or if the cards I'm missing aren't going to take too much away from the strategy of the deck.
I seen a post earlier that mentioned that allowing proxies let "a few specific decks emerge as the more powerful." I honestly don't see how. If there's anything that playing a game like Magic the Gathering teaches us, it's that there is always a way to beat a deck, whether it be through loophole mechanics, specialized effect, or just how the game itself was designed. Artifact decks are general trumped by green, massive amounts of creature are trumped by board wipes, a Graveborn deck can be trumped by a deck specializing in exiling instead of destroying. The only thing proxies should really take out of the question for deckbuilding is the money needed for the cards, because if someone really wanted those cards for their decks, they'd find a way of obtaining them, whether it be with money or trades with other people.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 05, 2012 - 11:07AM
#17
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I'm not trying to offend anyone, so please don't take it as trolling. But you don't need that much of an understanding of how cards work. Grasping the actual use of cards is the easy part for me. Building a deck that has the right synergy without asking for help or taking from online builds, is the challenge. Obviously a brand new player isn't going to be good enough to beat a pro, no matter what the deck build. But an a good player vs a pro? more about deck building than the actual play in my opinion. Play is pretty much entirely the execution of a pre-arranged strategy.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 05, 2012 - 11:23AM
#18
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Date Joined:
Feb 22, 2005
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I'm not trying to offend anyone, so please don't take it as trolling. But you don't need that much of an understanding of how cards work. Grasping the actual use of cards is the easy part for me. Building a deck that has the right synergy without asking for help or taking from online builds, is the challenge. Obviously a brand new player isn't going to be good enough to beat a pro, no matter what the deck build. But an a good player vs a pro? more about deck building than the actual play in my opinion. Play is pretty much entirely the execution of a pre-arranged strategy.
You don't need an understanding of how cards work to be able to cast them, but the higher up you go the more complex the decks get and the more important it becomes to know exactly when to cast what. Better decks do give better safety nets for poor play - Delver of Secrets and Geist of Saint Traft are both very powerful cards which will sometimes allow you to win games even if you make several mistakes - but when playing against skilled players you'll have to do more than the bare minimum.
Incidentally, this is where the ability to proxy comes in: If you are a skilled deck builder, as you claim, the benefits you reap from being able to use the best cards for every slot should allow you to be significantly more prepared than you would otherwise be. When everybody is able to run better decks, the advantage provided by running a netdeck shrinks rapidly because the distance between 'best deck' and 'next best deck' becomes smaller.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 05, 2012 - 11:48AM
#19
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Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2006
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While I dislike some stores and/or store owners, I don't think the answer is to proxy everything. There are other stores to choose from (depending on which area you're from) and if not then there are still alternatives such as ordering your cards from online vendors or buying from other players. I don't mind playing against proxies. I've done it with people deck testing a future deck or whatever. I'm a person who hasn't played a competitive magic game in over 2 years thanks to the increased cost of standard. Still as much as I would like to be competitive in standard tournaments I've never proxied anything. Either I'm a MtG player and I can afford to play or I can't afford it and I'll spend my money elsewhere. I'm not there in that situation on that campus and with that store owner so I won't judge the decisions of those players who have chosen to run their own tournaments with proxies. If they were nice and enjoyable people I might even join them for the games and companionship but my decks wouldn't have proxies. I'd rather have 1 tarmogoyf  and 3 strangleroot geist  (or whatever the next best two drop is for that particular decklist) than 1 tarmogoyf and 3 goyf proxies.
Don't be too smart to have fun
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8 months ago ::
Oct 05, 2012 - 11:57AM
#20
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Date Joined:
Jul 27, 2011
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@Lord_of_fuddies
Well it might be hard for your average person to acquire the Standard or Legacy deck that they want to play to. Why does Vintage get an exception just because it's harder? If you're broke everything is expensive.
Personally I love building casual decks entirely out of proxies. Then as I acquire each individual card I substitute it in. There's this feeling of accomplishment that comes with filling out a deck over time.
There is, I feel, a difference between I'm gonna proxy 3-4 Bonfires and 4 snappies I'll never get in my standard deck between....... Black Lotus  is at the very least $1k and the moxen trail it. There is an honest difference between finding then buying (BL + moxen = $4k-$6k and are typically very hard to find that some tournaments allow them to be proxied because of the shortage of them) and just saying "hey, my netdeck is proxied because I'm broke". Atm, at least in my RtR, I'm playtesting an approximately $150 Izzet deck because I plan to play with it and tweak it with my proxies.
Actually, I know how "filling" a deck feels, it's absolutely great =).
As far as my Zoo as well, I'm "trying" (read failing) a Goyf-less build but it has proxies (AKA fetches and the other spells I haven't had the chance to get yet). I gave it some proxies to have a difference between casual legacy and "serious" casual legacy.
*Phew*
Decks I run Spoiler:
Show
I currently run a deck for Standard, Modern, Commander and Legacy.
For standard, I have a typical, horribly budget Rakdos Deck Wins.
For Modern, I have a very lovable mono-green, resistant to removal type of deck.
For Legacy, I'm trying too hard to break Pyromancer Ascension .
For Commander/EDH, I'm running The Mimeoplasm .
A little morals thing about me, I like winning through combos, but not infinitely.
However quiet, I am a Christian, so feel free to tell me you are too, it's always a relief.Cheers!
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