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Thalakos dreamsower is a bupkiss card... All sorts of wrenches gettin thrown in.

I'm still saying that the abilities should check for a true duration on resolution. I dont see any mechanical problems, just sime functional changes to some pretty fringe cards.

Your proposal seems to say that Rubinia Soulsinger can steal a creature immediately upon activating the ability, without it needing to resolve.

Considering the current card pool, it seems to me we can divide the effect into just two categories, not three:
1) Effects that put a counter and apply an effect "for as long as" that counter remains.
2) Other "for as long as effect"

Seems to me we just need an exception rule for case 1, saying the duration is checked from when the counter is placed, rather from when the ability is put onto the stack. (Along with clarifying the original rule checking duration from when the ability was put onto the stack)

As for Thalakos Dreamsower , I don't see a problem keeping it as part of case 2, having it work the same as now. a tapped TD targeting itslef will have him "locked", an untapped TD will not be "locked" because the duration never started before the ability was put onto the stack.

though it makes me wonder about interactions with Rings of Brighthearth . Say you activate Vedalken Shackles , then somehow get it tapped and untapped, then Rings resolve and put a copy. It seems a bit funny that this copy will consider the duration valid while the original will not. though I guess it's okay to have a small corner case like this, especially if the logic remains consistent.

Oct 16, 2012 -- 6:38PM, Nyktos wrote:

Are you suggesting that all durations must begin when the ability is put on the stack?

Fiend of the Shadows might have a problem with that.

I see.
After a more thorough look for cards with "for as long as", I've found 8 kinds of durations :

(source = source of the ability;   target = the affected object, not necessarily targeted)

1. you control source
2. source remains tapped
3. source remains on the battlefield
4. target has some kind of counter on it 
5. target is enchanted ( Rootwater Matriarch )
6. target remains exiled
7. target remains on top of your library ( Temporal Aperture )
8. target's power remains less then or equal to source's power ( old man of the sea )

It seems we can divide them into two categories: effects the refer to the source (1, 2, 3 and 8) and effects that don't. So maybe we can rule it like so:

... if the duration refers to the source of the ability, then it is checked from when the ability was put onto the stack. Otherwise, the duation is checked from just before the effect tied to it begins apply.

But I'm not sure where Rootwater Matriarch 's effect stands. If it also needs to be checked from when the ability is put onto the stack, then it needs to be included in the first sentence somehow. Or, we can be specific and mention which effects make the duration start from when the ability is put onto the stack (1, 2, 3, 5 and 8)

Edit: Or we can just let Rootwater Matriarch work from when the effect is applied even if it's not supposed to. The situations where this matters are marginal and there isn't really much room for abuse. The worse that could happen is when the opponent would destroy the aura the other player would flash in another aura before the ability resolves.

Oct 17, 2012 -- 5:07AM, rmsgrey wrote:

Most of the time, you could just flash in the second aura while the spell or ability that will lead to the removal of the first is on the stack - there are exceptions (mass-removal, split-second, the first aura granting protection against the second, ...), so there are still corner cases where the break in duration is unavoidable.

Good point. So it's more marginal than i thought. So having Rootwater Matriarch check the duration from the effect's application isn't much of an issue.